creativity in hiring especially around junior devs w/ andrew wyborski

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Hello, hello. Thanks for listening to Guidance Counselor 2.0. Listen, I want to give you a quick rundown of what this podcast is and what you're about to get into as you listen to these episodes. We had Guidance Counselors in middle school. We had Guidance Counselors in high school, but we didn't really have Guidance Counselors in college and now as professionals, we don't really have anybody to turn to to ask a quick question to learn something about the job search or to navigate your career. And so that is what I want this podcast to be for you. I want it to be a tool for you to navigate the job search and your career.

So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you need to reach me, Taylor at vaco.com is how to get in touch with me old fashioned email social media at tdesntdesseyn. And finally, please rate and review this in the app store because I want this to be discoverable for others so they can navigate their careers. Hope you enjoy the episode. Give the people what they want. Who are you? What do you do? We'll go from there. Yeah, no worries. Again, appreciate the time this morning. My name's Andrew Iborsky. I'm an engine manager here with Kroger. Hopefully most of the folks know us, but if you don't, you may also know us as Ralphs or Smiths or Food for Less or Fred Meyer.

Yeah, we've got 14 brands across the greater United States. but I work in our e-comm division, so again working with teams on our web and native app platforms, and my group is fully 100% focused on customer experience. So again, our goal is to get your groceries in the least painful way possible, the way that you want it, at the price that you want it, and all that other good stuff, also trying to guide you down some new discovery paths. So So, been in tech for about 11 years after school now, been all over the map, but really loving my time here over the past three plus years.

Super excited to talk to you about kind of what's going on in the industry and the job market and all that stuff too. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, Andrew and I were chit-chat before we went live and I have a notepad of a bunch of things we wanna talk about. So we're gonna get right into it. And again, if you have questions, ask Andrew, right? This is the reason why I have this platform is, there are not many times you can ask a hiring manager question in public and they have to answer it because they're on my show. So feel free to ask questions. Alright, first first thing.

So, one of guidance counselor 2.0 is alumni, Michael Richardson, post the other day, I think it was a while ago, I, Andrew was like seriously, I can't, I can't get on till January and I was like, he's a busy guy. And then here we are. So I think, I think Michael posted like in November and he tagged Andrew in an amazing post about leveraging junior developers, getting creative when hires like, ah, I have to talk to that guy. I have to tell this guy story because people need to know it. So Andrew, let's dive into the first topic here. When it comes to hiring, not only junior devs, but just hiring creatively right now.

So hiring junior devs, how do you hire them? It sounds like a bad thing. Like, how do you hire the junior developer kind of ecosystem? What things do you have in place? and we'll go from there. Yeah, again, one of the benefits of being at Kroger is we've got that large company backing, right? So we've got a lot of different avenues by which people can either enter our funnel or we can get them introduced to us and all that other kind of, you know, back-end system stuff. But really the way that I like to hire is I like to get to know who we're talking to.

You know, there is some of the formal processes, which I was lamenting to you about, about resumes and code exams and things like that. But at the same time, I just wanna make sure that when we go through those processes with our candidates, we're doing so in a way that helps them sort of sell themselves. It helps them sort of give their best self and give their full picture because, especially with bootcamp graduates and candidates, there's a lot of stuff that those folks do that has nothing to do with technology that a lot of times gets sort of de-emphasized. And I think we can do their candidate profile when they start talking about it.

It's like, that's fantastic. I love to hear how you solve the goal. Just like off the top. Yeah. Yeah. So a lot of times it just comes down to ways that people were looking at the way they did their job regularly and they got tired of doing it the dumb way and they wanted to do it the lazy way. I love a lazy developer. I love a lazy engineer because we solve the problem once and then we never do it again. And so one of our recent hires was, and I'm going to get the specifics wrong, but basically he was doing stuff where he was creating reports after doing environmental impact studies, right?

So going out into the field, doing a bunch of work, gathering a bunch of data information, pulling it all together and then being able to publish it and send it out. And it was a very manually intensive process. And after a while, he was like, this is stupid. I don't like doing all these Excel spreadsheets. Can I write a macro? Can I write some BB that makes this stuff easier? And those are the nuggets that are buried in all the other stuff, the resumes, the coding challenges, the coffee talks, the matchmaking. Those are the nuggets that I wanna get to because that tells me who you really are.

You're someone who wants to solve problems creatively, but you're also looking at getting the stuff that's just not important out of the way so you can go after the important stuff. And so that's what I look for. And I look for people to show that off. But how do you Andrew, how do you are what what's your have so many thoughts in my head? How many questions right? It's so many questions. What's your advice to hiring managers to get those nuggets out of people? You just got to be human. Honestly, it's terrible that it's that simple, but it really comes down to that that yeah, there's a lot of automated processes.

There's a lot of things that we like to do. And you know, the old traditional model of, well, if you don't have a before your degree, I'm not talking to you. Or if you don't have a GPA over this level, I'm not talking to you. All those are is criteria and metrics that go into making the right decision. You know what I mean? And the way that I look at it, and again, this is probably an awful analogy, but hiring is really just playing roulette. And the more ways that you get information out of people are the more opportunities you give someone to be able to show who they really are and what they're capable of, the more chips you're putting down on the table.

So the more likely you are, you're going to hit. Right. Right. And at that point, like that's the key. And so I think my advice is, is use the tools you have to speed up things that you can easily offload. Like again, I'll go back to the coding exam. Now, a lot of places use that as a pass fail. They have a bar set and they say, this is where you got to get for us to talk to you. We have some of that, but again, a lot of times that's really just to sort of say, give us some information upfront that when we do get together and converse, we're not writing that code on the fly, you're not thinking about the syntax, we're talking about the problem.

I'm saying, okay, here is the problem we gave you. Tell us what your solution was supposed to do and then walk us through how you went from here's my idea to here's a working piece of software. And that way again, you're using those tools as a way to build that full profile, but it's not the de facto end of the conversation. So you're saying gosh, I'm so glad we're catching up because you get it and it makes me so happy Why do you think interview and is less and why do you think interview in a general is like hey Prove to us you should work here instead of saying hey, you know what I think this could work But like information like why do you think it's this like such a tug of war Yeah, so again, you brought up football, so I'm going to lean into that.

Yeah, go ahead, listen. Anytime we can talk about football, right now. Right, and I worked at a company building, sporting applications prior. So I got a lot of sports analogies. Because now in the Kroger, in the grocery area, it doesn't fly as well sometimes. But the way I look at it is it's like with the NFL Draft, right? They try to get all this information because all that's happening at the end of the day is that the coach the GM the scout That first round pick when they bomb they can point and be like well He checked all the boxes right and so he didn't work out.

Well, it wasn't my fault I did my due diligence like right he was a prototypical quarterback 64 huge arm whatever When all they're doing is relying on old outdated stuff that doesn't actually actually get you the Russell Wilson's doesn't get you that next quarterback that next Tom Brady right because that's hard that's a lot harder to do and and I get it as as someone who's had the onboard and hire three to four dozen people in the last year it's a lot of work it's very intensive you you hired my math terrible you have hired close to 36 people in the last year Yes, just going to let that, let that bake for a second.

Yes, that tires me out. Yeah, talking about it. So go ahead, go ahead. Yeah. So, so again, you know, it's something we're doing the hard work is hard and it takes time and it's, it's an emotional investment on time on top of just a, you know, paperwork investment. But at the end of the day as a hiring manager, the most important thing I can do for my corporation and therefore my career is identify the right talent for the right role and then help them grow to take my job. Because if they're taking my job, well then I'm probably moving up too, or I'm doing something else.

Because if I'm stuck here doing the same thing three years from now, I'm going to be so bored, it's just it's not going to be feasible. So again, that's why this is so important. It's the beginning of the funnel. But I think so many people are still stuck in that old mindset of, well, if they came from a target school, they have a CS degree, they know our language, they know our frameworks, man, if they don't work out, then that's clearly going to be on them. And so it all stems from a place of fear, I feel like, and that it's not good enough. That's it.

I want to give some shots of people kind of toot in air. what's going on. A meal acid did Andy work in a grocery store retail in a CS career just by chance. Yeah, so I mean I've never been unemployed since the age of 12. But I never actually worked in a grocery store but I have done retail in the past. So a lot of time spent in bars and restaurants. So this might be a blast from the past, but like, do you remember Stephen Barry's? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I was grinding there folding t-shirts, man. Let me tell you it. And, uh, yeah.

And, and of course it was right during the summer, they went bankrupt too. So I don't know if it's my fault or whatever, but yeah. So that was, that was my retail experience. You didn't fold enough t-shirts, Andrew. Congratulations. Not right. Usman from Pakistan, man, we are just international this morning. Elliot, what's going on from Mississippi, Yolanda, Good Morning, Allen, what's going on. Hey, Al, we need to get you on the show. Congrats on your new job, buddy. Brittany, Good Morning. It's so great to see you. All right. So, and then Justin, Good Morning. All right. So there's two questions that come in from Chris.

Yes. So the first question from Chris, what are the missing skills that hiring managers that make hiring managers most nervous about juniors and newbies? Like if a hiring manager was to say, I'd love to hire somebody new to tech, but they can't do x, y, and z. I don't have time to teach them. What is that x, y, and z. That is a great question. So I'll turn it around a little bit and, you know, Chris, feel free to respond the comments here. But if if you had x, y, and z and that statement was still being made, why would you want to go work there?

Because if they can't take time to teach you X, Y, and Z, then how are you going to learn X prime, Y prime, Z prime, right? Like, Andrew, when I'm coming up to Cincinnati next week, I'm going to try to buy you a coffee. We need to do that. I'm going to say, yeah, we'll have to get some latte's or something like that. I'll chop it up again. But that's exactly it. And I understand the question. And it's one I get a lot from people in the junior entry level area of, well, how do I get on the radar? How do I get in? What are the texts I have to learn?

And the question I have there, and more specifically for boot camp grads, because I think for people coming out of college, university, technical schools, there you should be leaning into the co-op internship route. That's gonna be the best way to get your foot in the door while also understanding how to take your academic experience and apply it to business. Like, I don't know if anyone still learns database normalization, but like you're gonna get grilled on that in, you know, CS 30, 305. Never gonna do it in the real world. There is no such thing as normalized databases. So, internships, co-ops, that's the key if you're going through the traditional route.

If you're coming out of a boot camp, again, you've been immersed for what, three months maybe? The lowest one I've seen is like 14 weeks. Yeah. And you're getting the tip of the iceberg and what you're actually doing there to me isn't learning how to write React or learning how to write Swift. You're learning how to stick with something, you're learning how to solve problems and you're learning how to work in that environment. Because it's very different than maybe if you were as an accountant going out and auditing, or you were in sales previously. So, you can learn all the buzzwords, but if to actually answer Chris's question, I would say take the meta approach.

Go ahead and learn how to learn. And again, I'll rest on my Zager laurels, Zager University since Nadi shout out to the one CS program, the Tri-County area. One of the courses we took our sophomore year was programming languages. And the entire course was tailored around learning a brand new language from scratch in five days and then being able to present to the class what it was used for, its pros and cons and all of that. Because if you could do that, you can get thrown in anything and figure yourself out. And so that to me is what I would say is that should be your X, Y, and Z of of learn how to ask the right questions, learn how to be a part of a team.

And then if you want a tangible skill, automated testing, you put down your resume, you're gonna get a callback. Yeah, that's becoming hot and that's another trend that we can talk about maybe in the future. Maybe I can get Andrew back on, but yeah, I mean, that's definitely a skill that I'm seeing a lot of. Also, Chris, I know you and I have a 10, I may be running late, so just FY because my conversation with Andrew may run long, so Chris just heads up. All right, so Elliot, how do you advise people to approach interview processes that are automated and impersonal with on-way interviews?

I don't get that. What helps me in one way? Yeah, yeah, yeah. What helps people move forward in those situations? Oh, so this actually goes into another thing we wanna talk about. So do you wanna talk about the network and the people? Yes, that's where it's gonna start, it's perfect, right? It's great when things just work out that way. Thank you, Elliot, for teeing us up on that. Yes, appreciate it, Elliot. And he was not compensated for that. So there's a couple parts. So Taylor kind of touched on there. You want to build your network. You want to build other tools that take you out of those systems, right?

So if you know someone that works at Kroger and you are interested in working there, maybe reach out to him. Shoot him a resume, set up a coffee chat with them, get to know them a little bit, get to know the company a little bit, and that usually will help you skip some steps in the process. I think user groups are a great way to network almost every city in America and probably in the world honestly because I know we're people from Nigeria and Egypt. Find your local development community and I know in Cincinnati we've got ones that are geared around.net around JavaScript. There's others that are own functional programming.

There's others that are around nonprofit software development. There's a lot of different types of categories too you could explore but build your network that way Well, yeah Yeah, and I'm gonna interrupt you to and listen I'm gonna give myself a shout out the reason so here's the deal if I was a job seeker. This is what I would do I would DM every guess that I have on and Say hey Andrew remember there's three ways to do a good DM I talk my law all the time flattery a specific question a specific amount of time I would DM every single speaker have on and go, hey, Andrew, love your chat with Teo today.

Do you got three minutes? I would love to ask you one question about this. And I would keep doing that. One of the reasons why, right? The people who maybe don't feel comfortable going out in public yet or don't like large groups in general pre-COVID, right? That is why I created this thing. Because literally like all these people commenting today, All these people commenting, if I were you, I would spend your entire morning sliding to everybody's DMs and trying to have a conversation. So go ahead. And no, and that's exactly it. And that's one of the things we were talking about before this, because at the end of the day, the key is to remember that this business is about people.

There is still a human element to this. So what you really want to do is make connections. And the people that are most successful, whether they're engineers, product managers, designers, whatever, it's the people that are able to make connections with their colleagues, with their clients, and be able to build things out of that. And so that's the key. So again, building your network, drill, it's weird. I learned this at the age of like 14 when I saw it in a book in my uncle's bathroom oddly enough. It still sticks with me this day. It was a book titled, Reader's Digest. Nah, I wish, but no, I was even nerdier than that.

As a 14 year old reading, dig your well before you're thirsty. Right? So you may be employed right now. You may be in boot camp right now, but start building that network today because it's gonna serve you in three years. And then, you know, a little bit more back to the sort of very technical or tactical pieces, have a, what I call sort of your master resume that has literally everything on it. It has, I won the award for folding the most t-shirts in 30 seconds 15 years ago, or I'm working on this nonprofit group, have everything that in one document that then you can either spin out multiple versions of, or as you go to apply for certain positions, you can take that, thin it down, and tailor it to the very specific thing that you're posting for.

So again, putting the work in to sort of really tailor it to what you're trying to achieve is gonna show through. And last but not least, you just got a grind, man. I know it sucks to hear that, but you just gotta keep going with it. And you have to, that's why you have to have faith in yourself. You have to understand who you are what you really want because it's not easy. Even in this market where I can't find enough people to fill our headcounts, I know of friends and peers who have been looking for months and they just haven't found the right spot.

And they get frustrated and go, you know what, man, then it just wasn't right. And sometimes it's better to not have anything and wait for the right thing to be stuck in a toxic situation. We should just end it right there. That was great. Right. Yeah. Safety safety on Instagram safety, Lacey goes, every interaction is an interview if you try hard enough. Yep. And I think when he says try hard enough is be intentional, right? I think one of the biggest issues that I see and I preach this all the time, right? It's not, it's not DMing Andrew. Go, Hey, Andrew, like, like show today.

Mm hmm. That's nice. I mean, Andrew, like cool. Thanks, man. Appreciate it. Sure. Hey, Andrew, listen, man, really like to show. you said about this would love to ask you one more follow up question about that for five, for three minutes. Which one sounds better? Which one do you think is going to make the most impression now will tell you this? If you do that with Andrew, what is Andrew? Andrew's a hiring major. What did you just do? You tend to think I got self an interview because in my opinion, any conversation you cover the hiring major is an interview like just like safety, Lacey just said.

Yeah, we got a bunch of people just code good morning. Brittany awesome tees they were great. They were so great Hillary what's going on? Hillary posted the actual book I was referencing here. So you Yeah, I'm not we got an idea in the house this morning Okay, here's one How do you empower your junior devs to grow in your company? And this this is an you know, I bet you some of their ears are gonna be burning here but I make them very uncomfortable. I do. I make, oh yeah, I make a very uncomfortable. I say good luck. Well, you know, I'm not going to say that because you know if HR catch would win to that but no, I push them.

I push them really hard and I push them because they know that not only do I do it because I'm standing right there with them but because that's what's required to grow. And again, going back to whether it's university or boot camp, it wasn't a small effort that you got through that thing. Not everyone gets into college. Not everyone gets into bootcamps. You got selected to do that for a reason. You completed that for a reason. I'm going to put you in circumstances where I want you to fail because then what you've done is you've uncovered an opportunity for growth or we've discovered you know what, it's just not your thing.

You know, that's fine because again, especially in tech, there's so much stuff that you can do as an engineer. coming out of school as a junior, you're really, you're so green. You know enough to be dangerous, but you also don't know, do I want to be a performance engineer, an experience engineer, a DevOps engineer, networking it? I mean, you could do any of those things. So many things. And so the way that I get them to grow is by pushing them. And again, letting them know, look, this is going to be uncomfortable. I'm going to push you. I had literally this conversation with a direct report of mine.

14 months ago, I told her, go Jill, I'm making you uncomfortable this quarter. You're doing great. You've got all your goals hit for key one and two, but I'm going to make you really uncomfortable and three and four because it's time to grow. And she was like, all right, but I, all right. Thanks. But like, and I want to give, and I want to give a shout out to Andrew though, because Andrew has developed a rapport with his team where you can go, you know what, this is going to get uncomfortable and his team goes, yeah, okay. Because here's the deal, most managers in tech, if you say that, they're going to be like, oh, sucks.

This is stupid. Why in the hell is he saying this? And it's like, Andrew has developed a rapport, so leaders take notes that if you sit down, understand your team, you can press and it actually be taken and received well. So props to you, Andrew. Yes. Yeah. the key because again and to sort of put a bow on that story, Jill is now a tech lead on a team four years removed from a boot camp after being an administrative assistant for a decade. You're kidding me. That's not 100% serious. For a 14, 20 company, the eighth biggest e-com retailer in the world, she's leading a team of offshore developers across iOS, Android, and web.

And that's because she was willing to trust in the process. And because I was willing to step out of her way to let her grow. So that's the key. So let's keep moving on here. It's going down to the DMs. Do you have, I mean, I'm being honest, seriously. Chris goes, that's what my Andrew Dm about to get hit. Well, they already blew up this week. Apparently I had a job anniversary I didn't know about. Oh, really? That's what was reminding me. Here we go. Yeah. Harvey, make kick K dig your well before you're thirsty. I love that. One plus one to having the master resume.

I got that tip last year and it makes it easier to apply to other jobs because I can take out skills that doesn't apply to positions that are finding ways to build it up again. Yeah, I mean, I think it needs to be this breathing document. So you'll want to absolutely. I love just everything he has to say. So Justin goes, I think another piece of it, The piece of it is that it's just a conversation. Be direct and take advice as anything that allows you to grow as a developer. I'm reading comprehension is terrible today. Even if it doesn't get you a job obtaining increases your knowledge.

So yeah, that's the thing, right? And Angel, I want you to speak on this. I feel like everybody's like, I'm only gonna have a conversation if it applies to me right now. No, yeah, CMF, that's the problem. And so again, we were talking about this pre-show of where I do not see people writing if else statements in three years from now. Now, that's probably a pretty bold statement because we know there's still people running on Windows forms and stuff like that from 20 years ago. But it's the US government, right? Cobol and Furturing will always exist because of them. But at the same time as we see sort of technology and platforms evolve, like, look, I think I'm pretty sad.

I still don't get this whole metaverse thing. But I'll tell you what the metaverse developers aren't doing, they're not writing switch statements. They're building additional things on top of the basic foundational building blocks. And so if you're not willing to start to think about crazy stuff like that, then you're not gonna get better at doing what you do every day. So again, it's one of those things where every time you have a conversation, every time there's an opportunity to get exposed to something else, welcome it, evaluate it. And if it doesn't apply, then just put it on the back burner. Don't throw it away, but just kind of keep it there that you can reference again later because the secret is none of us have this figured out and a lot of it really is fake it till you make it, right?

Like I tell my developers, like, look, every week we get a print out of our performance, the company's performance, our sales, all this other stuff, very business-y, whatever stuff. But if you spend two, three minutes reading that every week and you can pluck out one or two nuggets each week that then if you throw them in the conversation with someone else, that'll be a call back to them later and they'll be like, man, that's right. They so and so much in that. And that's again, extending your understanding and your learning broader than just I write C sharp code. Absolutely. Because that's not what engineers do.

We build things, we solve problems and it doesn't have to necessarily just be in an IDE. Yep. I love that. So we're going to wrap up here. I do want to drive home one thing that you said to me off air. Yes. And that is around confidence. So let's wrap up here. Because I think so. Listen, 2021 has beaten some people up. Hell, the last two years has beaten some people up, right? It's a very mentally financially. But you said something off air that I really, really want to drive home on it and I get goosebumps thinking about it because I think people really need to hear this.

So go ahead. Yeah, and it was know who you are and have confidence in that. I think one of the most impactful things for me this last year from a personal growth perspective was actually learning to meditate and doing a lot of work and understanding mindfulness so that I could understand who I was and what my strengths were so that when I went to a meeting, when I went into a design session, when there was conflict, I had confidence in who I was and where my skill sets were and what my opinions and things were. Because again, at the end of the day, you know yourself best and you are the only person that can censor your true self.

So, understand who you are, understand where you want to go, and that doesn't mean you have to know. Just understand the questions you may have or understand what it is that you want out of things. Because again, going back to the bootcamp graduate, one of the things that I take a little bit of an exception with sometimes with bootcamps is they say they teach their candidates. Don't ever put yourself in a box. Don't ever say, oh, well, I only want to do this or, you know, I'm a developer. I can do anything. I'll do full stack, whatever. Like, okay, great. That's just gonna, I'm gonna just throw that answer away and forget because that's basically saying I don't really know.

Right. But you can say those, you can say, well, I've tried this and it has all right. I'm curious about this thing, but I don't really know that much. Know who you are, know who you want to be, or know what you don't know and be confident in that. Because if you're not confident in that, everyone's going to see through it and no one's going to have faith in you because of it. So whatever your skill level, whatever your personality, whoever you are, be your full self, and it will work out. I can promise you. All right. One more question. I lied. What, what is your, what is your advice for hiring managers in 2022?

You got to put the fear aside. You got to put the fear aside and you have to start really putting the faith in yourself, your processes and listening to your people. Because again, going back to that, that thing we were talking about, you know, the prototypical NFL quarterback, let's draft him because you know if things go bad, well it wasn't my fault. Like he looked like the part, so clearly that was on some of us. Right, right. But that's hiring from a place of fear. And you're never going to get those unicorns. You're never going to get those rock stars if you take that approach.

If I would have had that approach, who knows? Jill may not have been here. Again, I didn't bring her in, but going back to that story, if you go from a place of fear, you're not going to take the necessary calculated risks to get to where you really want to go. And so put that aside and look at what you truly need. And if you don't have time to teach people, you got to take a really big look at things because if you can't teach people coming in, you're probably not teaching the people you already have. And you almost might as well close up shop at that point because someone's gonna overtake you or they're gonna buy you out.

I think Andrew has probably had the most one-liner zingers. I think of any guests I've had. So Andrew, thank you again for coming on, man. I absolutely, man. All right, y'all, thank y'all go connect with Andrew on LinkedIn tomorrow. Who do I have tomorrow? Tomorrow's a good guess. Tomorrow. Oh, Rob. So tomorrow I have an individual from across the pond. Rob Joseph over in England, he invited me on his podcast. He's a free land social talk about free land inside of things, how he navigates it. Because a lot of y'all that wants to be free land, don't have a clue how to get into this.

about that. Also shout out Friday's episode, I'm typing it now. Aside from Andrew, Friday I'm superjacked about Kent Dodds is coming on Kent Dodds as one of the quarantine members of the Yaknow who started a new one. We're going to remix because JavaScript people can't have enough things to do. So Kent's coming on Friday to talk about remix. I'm very, very excited about that. But Andrew, thank you today was a lot. I'm going to text you when I'm up in Sanjay. Yeah, let me know, man. Let me know. Thank you, everyone, for dialing in. Everyone has a wonderful Tuesday, a wonderful rest of the week, and a great start to 2022.

Y'all. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode, and I am very grateful, because you know why? There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes, and I myself rarely finished an entire episode. So I appreciate you so, so much for listening. Quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the App Store, I want this to be discoverable to others and the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it, please, like right now. Unless you're driving, then don't do it. So thank you again. If you need to reach out to me, tailor at vaco.com or at Tdeston on all social media handles.

And I hope you have a fantastic day.