salary negotiations and onboarding w/ dan digangi

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Hello, hello. Thanks for listening to Guidance Counselor 2.0. Listen, I want to give you a quick rundown of what this podcast is and what you're about to get into as you listen to these episodes. We had Guidance Counselors in middle school. We had Guidance Counselors in high school, but we didn't really have Guidance Counselors in college and now as professionals, we don't really have anybody to turn to, to ask a quick question to learn something about the job search or to navigate your career. And so that is what I want this podcast to be for you. I want it for it to be a tool for you to navigate the job search and your career.

So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you need to reach me, Taylor at vaco VACO.com is how to get in touch with me old-fashioned email social media at tdsntdesseyn.com. And finally, please rate and review this in the app store because I want this to be discoverable for others so they can navigate their careers. Hope you enjoy the episode. Dan, give the people what they want. Who are you? What do you do? We'll go from there. I kind of want to start out by saying I'm a lacroi sponsor, so eventually they actually sponsor me like you did with yours. Of course.

So lacroi if you're watching. Bonjour power by lacord and black coffee. Yes, so my name is Dan DeGangi. I'm an engineering manager at DocuSign. I work out of Chicago, but I do work remote for a minute now. My background is in the UX UI space, which is in engineering. So I've been doing JavaScript since I had way less great hair. And yeah, I'm super passionate about the UX UI space, hiring onboarding. I've designed a lot of hiring and onboarding. So you and I always have a great alignment. It's definitely something I'm super passionate about. Yep, I love it. I love it. And then we have Kenya in the house today, Moses.

Thanks for joining. We are international this morning. I love it. So Dan, let's dive in, because I know 30 minutes goes by really fast, especially when you and I get together, because we like to talk. For the first part is negotiations, right? And so one of the things I've really been thoughtful about lately is the fact that I'm a salesperson, right? At the end of the day, recruiters are salespeople. That's why most people hate us. I'm a salesperson and I still struggle with negotiations, right? Like when I'm on client calls trying to get new clients, I still get weird, right? I get weird negotiating fees and contract terms and stuff, right?

Man, if I struggle with this, can you imagine what a normal job seeker is struggling with when it comes to this stuff? And so that's why I want to start to unpack this. And so I just want to kick it off super high level. What are just some general tips for negotiations, especially with you and kind of your thoughts, again, no wrong answers here, but if somebody is in negotiations with you, give me some general thoughts and comments on just the negotiation process in general. Sure. So I think the thing you mentioned with everyone getting kind of weird or uppity on both sides of the table is it's money, it's compensation.

We love to say it's not the big deal, but it is, right? It's the thing that you need money to survive and keep going. And so the first thing I'd always say is that, don't be intimidated regardless of the side of the table you're on. Everyone knows this is part of the game. It's the piece of it, it has to happen. So there's a few things that I'd say come to mind for me. So first is there's no, as long as you're not wildly out of place or wildly over the top, there's really no wrong thing you can do almost with an asterisk there, of course.

Sure, yeah, yeah. Like don't be a jerk. Yeah, and like, you're like, oh no, I need a million dollars a year. Like, okay, if you're buying some startup that doesn't have even a million dollars, but like you have to be realistic and reasonable, but it's okay to negotiate. Just start up and put yourself in that mode that it's okay to negotiate within reason. So like one thing to know for an entailor, you know, keep me honest here, every experience I've had with usually recruiter calls in the beginning is it's one to make sure you're not an absolute crazy person. But the second is is to align compensation, right?

So make sure you're in the ballpark and one you understand like what is your role worth in the market, what is this company willing to pay for the role and where do you fit as far as your experience and skillset goes within that compensation, right? And so the thing that like most immediate tip that I always think of is what I see a lot is so the most common is right like I want 100 grand but I'm used to getting 80 grand so I asked for 120 so that I can get the 100 right like that's the most common way that everyone goes about it right what I see happen though is is that so it'd be like Taylor I need that 100 grand okay cool why and no one says the the actual like reason like if you're gonna try and and say that like, hey, I should be paid this much.

Sure. You got to negotiate with grounding. Like, why should you? Like, is it the market rate? Is it your skillset? Is there something that sets you apart? Are you different? I love that. Like, you have to establish that clear line in order to even get it. So I had, for those of you who are watching, a few episodes back ahead from TikTok, Dan from HR. So if you go to TikTok, Dan underscore from underscore HR. I like him. He is very brash and I love brash. He actually came down to one of my videos and kind of picked it apart and I said, ooh, I love this, let's bring him on.

But what he talked about, so I was really big on like, hey, doing salary.com or Glassdoor and comparing salaries. And he was like, listen, at the end of the day, like market research doesn't really hold anything in negotiations. He was like, you need to talk about what you're bringing to the table, right? Like what is your background? It's just like Dan said, like, what makes you stand out, right? And Dan, so let me ask you this, like, like, what would be a good answer? Hey, Dan, you know, like listen, I have, I don't know, I have a pretty, I have a AWS land assert. I've been working in AWS for a lot of years.

I know you all said you all struggling with trying to find an AWS resource. So that's why I think I'm worth it. Is that good? Like, is that something that that you would like to hear? It could be. I mean, you got to think context, right? Like, you know, what is like, so what I like what you said there is, is what are the problems that they're facing? Is it just hey, we need to hire someone, and this is something to be helpful, if it's like, hey, we're struggling in an area. Those are like leverage points that you can use as someone trying to get a job to establish the value and put yourself in the best position to get the job and the compensation you want.

So make those things clear. Or an interesting thing I see some people do, and I don't even realize that it is they'll be like, I'll have some job description, right? And they'll be like, well, hey, based on that and what we interviewed, what I see is you're going to need this and this, and here's why. and here's how I fit into that picture. So you're even looking a little bit wider and deeper than I might be to say like, hey, this is how these kind of combined together to make even a better person potentially to fit, for you and vice versa. And when people say that, it's almost like, it's one of the things I do with my team when we go through your reviews is like, hey, everybody, right down your accomplishments, what you're doing, you push the needle forward so that when they come into the conversation for review and compensation, it's not this like, kind of like, well, why kind of thing?

It's like, no, here's clear evidence, here's good reasoning. I thought through it, here's why. That makes the conversation very easy or much easier, just like you can in negotiation. And I think about that a lot. It's from both sides of the table. And I've been on both sides. Yeah. So Dan, from HR again, he's the only other negotiation talk I've had. So I guess I only had one, Dan. I thought I had more than that. But basically he was saying to, yeah, to bring up points in the interview, he was like, listen, like, y'all talked. So for example, we just got a new client. My team just got a new client, fully remote client.

and they were like, hey, this role's been open for a year. And like listen, like, you know, I don't know, I don't know if that's something to necessarily bring up. No, okay, good. Okay, good. Good. Let me put this way. It's not, it's like kind of a turn off to me, but here's the other thing is, is like, I can, you know when I use a line like that, when I'm buying watches, when I'm buying cars, when I do stuff like that, like that's the point of leverage I'll use for those types of things. Sure. But using that on somebody for a job, Okay, that's good.

Not the rod I would go. I don't think that's weird to me. It's like, hey, you're desperate, you should hire me. Like, do you really want that to be the way you project yourself and why you should get hired? That's true. And then also too, but again, bringing up stuff during the interview process, right? So going back, backtrack a little bit, what we just said, listening to key things, right? Maybe they're needing Shopify experience and you bring a wealth of Shopify. And this is a really important role for a project that they need to stand up, right? bring time that into negotiations that things incredibly important.

LA comes in here. I've been talking with a lot of recruiters and collecting figures in the market and brand names to interview with. I've talked to Nintendo recently. I'm final stages with a lesser known company. I can legit back it up for my talks with recruiters. Yeah, I mean, listen, I talk about this all the time. I think if you want a starting point, I don't know. Again, I love where LA is coming from in a sense of knowing his worth. Again, I wouldn't bring this up in negotiations because this is kind of what we're talking about about market worth. You know, you can't sit, I mean, Dan, I'm interested in your thoughts, but if I interview with you, like, and I'm gonna be like, well, Nintendo is giving me this, you're like, I don't really care about Nintendo, right?

That honestly, so I get, I get Elliot what you mean to, and there's only one place in my opinion that that really works, or sort of one in two places. And it's when you talk big tech and bang, or companies that pay at the level of the big tech companies, because that's what engineers especially do. They jump around, like I go to Facebook. So I'll jump to Google, well Facebook paid me this, like that happens a lot. But you gotta remember like, that's the notoriety you know, but that is not the full circle of the market. That's one large small area of it, if you know what I mean, and it works a lot and a little bit differently inside of there.

So some, just, you don't wanna use that as again, it's to me that's that same thing you said about that desperate kind of line. And I don't mean this is desperate, what I mean is it's like, Is that the way you want to project it is like, hey, well, they're going to do this. Like, yes, you can leverage an offer to get more money potentially, but you don't want to make it as like, well, why won't you do that? Like how come you're not like that? Like that's all kind of reality. It's all to now and how you present it. Yeah, and you just, it's just be careful.

And again, that's why I say like context matters. So like, you know, one thing may work here and one thing may not work here. That's why as you go through interviews and processes, you got to like understand like, maybe what you thought you were going to do at the beginning, if you got to this stage and where you're, if you're there now, it might not be the same thing anymore based on what you learned and what you know or the offer you have. And you have to always keep that in mind, be very dynamic in how you go through these processes and where you're gonna land.

Right. And then Elliot said this, I talked to my external recruiter, they got me, and that's fantastic. And so it's good. So here's, I like your approach, Elliot, in digging into the recruiter, because I think digging into recruiters different than digging into Dan during the offer stage, because recruiters, like we can hack it, right? Like if you come as you're like, listen, like in my team deals with this too, right? Like I said, I think I've told this story before we got an offer data engineer, their company counted 100 K and total comp, not just like total comp, 100 K and literally like the candidate was like, listen, like this is, I need to get to a certain threshold from a sour to even make it justifiable.

I'm fine with that. I, I think again, I think like what we talked about, I think going back and saying like going to Dan and be like, Hey, I interviewed in Nintendo. This is what the gaming dance party like great. We're not Nintendo So you need to go take the Nintendo offer right? That's that's that's probably how the conversation would would play out I I would that's not how every company is going to act though. Right like again That's why you got a few of these situations out you got to understand the recruiter the hiring manager it all is gonna be very Depends and contextual.

Do you like counters? Do you like like do you like when people counter? Is that something that you like to see? Well, just here's my, well, I wanna hear your thoughts and then I'll add some color why, what I've heard from other managers. I mean, I don't have an issue with it. What I don't like is just when someone tries to overdo it. Like, you know, again, if like I have a job that pays 100 grand and you're like, hey, I need 400 grand because I worked at Google and like, okay, I get that, but like, I can't do that. Like I don't have that ability.

So like come at me with something realistic if you really wanna negotiate. But don't throw the entire ocean at me. Like, I can't do that. Plus, you know, like, here's what I would say. When you asked me really about initial tips, so I'd say is it never hurts within reason to ask for more or to counter. So don't be scared to do it. And what I can say, at least in my opinion, what I've done, unless it's again unreasonable, I won't, like I'm not gonna say no, you can't get this off or because you ask for more money. It's when you do something wild and over the top that I might be like, hey, this alignment's not there.

But asking for 20 grand or 30 grand more, like, sure, let's have a conversation. It's okay. Yeah, I'm not gonna fully offer. Yeah, well, so I think that's big though, right? I've had company, well, pre-COVID, I've had companies pull offers. That's weird to me. I really don't get that. I think it's a red flag with culture. I just think there's red flag with culture. It is, it's really strange to me that you wouldn't like, like, hey, yes, why wouldn't somebody try and get with the word, especially if like we won't, this is a whole nother topic on its own, but especially knowing that not everybody gets paid the same, not everybody gets paid fairly, depending on who and where you come from.

And like, there's so much in there that's on pack and that can, anyways, this is a whole nother conversation. That is that is wild to me that someone would not think that why? Yeah, no, you shouldn't counter were amazing. You should take what we give you like, ew, that's a horrible way to think about it. Yeah, I love that. And that was a great sound bite. I can't wait to get that sound bite. but yeah, I mean, and I think the thing is too, I think as a manager, you know, you want, and again, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think managers, I think the good ones out there, want people who are comfortable with pushback, right?

Because at the end of the day, like, you know, as a manager myself, I want people to challenge my ideas. I don't want people to sit in these Zoom calls going, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, like, no, like, let's have a conversation in my perspective if you are tactfully, if you can tactfully do a counter, I think that may even be more exciting to the manager, be like, oh, wow, this person can push back, is confident, and is very articulate. I'm super excited for this person. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, this goes both ways too. You have to be willing to walk away. And again, that goes for both sides of the table.

Sometimes you're not gonna get it, or you're just wasting time in a conversation that's not going to go. You still should fight for it and do it the right way, but at some point you're gonna have to walk or they're gonna walk. That is just the nature of how it goes. That's on point. Yeah, and I think too, again, I mean, I've talked about knowing your worth and not just what the market is, but knowing what you're getting paid recently, like currently, like, and I'm talking about monthly benefit costs, 401K match, HSA match, if you get it, PTO, salary, bone, I mean, like really kind of go through the check mark, know what you're worth, because I see a lot of people get so caught up on just salaries, we have one company, Nashville, who pays well, but their benefits are terrible.

So you kind of have to ask for another 20 grand more. And so Dan, do you guys, are y'all chill about giving out benefit information kind of early on? Is that something? Yeah. In docuSign in particular. So one of the reasons I picked docuSign was that the benefits outside compensation are wildly good. Like I think I said this in the first one, they really do actually like, it's not empty words when they say they care about their employees. The docuSign, so like, We get random days off for COVID. I don't pay with no dependence. I pay nothing for my insurance. Phone bills covered. So like those things, they add up.

Like I was paying $80 a month at my last job. And it's not that bad, but it's still $80 a month that I'm not taking in that I could be saving or whatever I need to do with my money. You know? Absolutely. That's what matters quite a bit. Absolutely. All right. So we're halfway through and then that flew by again. We're just hitting surface stuff. I want to move on to onboarding. because I think a lot of companies don't do it well. I don't think anyone does it. I mean, I think very few people probably do it really well, but Dan, I'm interested here at Thoughts.

One, do you think y'all do onboarding well? And if not, what are some major glaring ports? And if you think you do it well, maybe kind of give your secret sauce. So I think we're at with DocuSign and the CLN product. I think there is some things we do really well, but I do think, and I feel confident that others within New York would say, It is an area that we want to be growing in and do a lot better. Like I can say if I look back, so I'm coming up on my two year market document sign. And if I look at, from the first person I hired, this guy, this guy, pre-owned, because I'm my team, I'm an awesome guy.

It was a long and lengthy onboarding process, and it took us time. But basically he documented it, and went through it, he shared the feedback. And I just had someone start recently, and the guy before as well, that it went super smooth. It went very fast. they were getting stuff into committed in code within the first two weeks. For us, that's normal because we have a computer setup. So it's definitely an area we're getting better at, but I would say what's really important is, what are the most important things they're gonna get them up and moving first? And that's where you wanna focus. So what I mean specifically though is, yeah, you got to set your computer up and you gotta learn the GitHub and stuff, but like the place that we start is, do you know about your team, about the product?

Do you understand what the company, So like for DocuSign, it's the agreement cloud is the big thing that we're trying to push. Okay, cool. Now what about CLMs role within that? Cool. Now what about your team's role? What about your role? And you get this nice stepped effect to really understand where you fit into the picture. And so me, when she's like seeing that, you're gonna be a lot more effective. Then all the code stuff and computer setup, because that doesn't, yeah, you can code, but that doesn't really change that much of the companies. But knowing how you fit in and what you're trying to achieve, that does.

And that is one of the most important things to get up front of. How long do y'all take to get somebody? How long does it take to get a developer kind of up and running? And I know it's gonna vary between each team, but what's kind of the average? Cause I'm curious, right? Just even as a recruiter, I mean, I've seen, I've heard it take six months for a developer to be like truly like producing. But then like I said, I mentioned off air that Etsy has this onboarding process where you're like deploying to production for day one. So I don't know what to believe.

Yeah. So I'll never forget this. One of my bosses at CLN, Keith Litman, when I first started the first day, he's like, listen Dan, I'm gonna be honest with you. It's gonna be three months before you can legitimately contribute and it's gonna be a year before it's big contribution. He doesn't mean you're not doing work. What do you mean? Sure. There is so much product and so much domain knowledge to learn that you can't just be up to speed and full in three months. Even now two years then, I know I'm very dangerous in a good way with what I know. But there's a lot more feel to run to try and get to learn this product and our customers and everything.

So that's from again, just getting that domain, but for our actual more low level tactical. So we right now are shooting for within the first one to two weeks, your computer is up and set up, your local machine is a remote type thing. And then we want you submitting a piece of code in your second sprint basically. of something in the first month. Basically, nothing critical though, obviously, we don't want to put you in the fire line as something important, but I can say the last two, the last two people I hired, they took on a critical piece of work both in the first sprint that they consulted in that first sprint because they went so fast and they did so well and part of that was because our onboarding process is getting better and better.

Yeah. What is like, what's kind of the key to get people up? Like if there's a tip that you could give companies right now, is it documentation just to get developers up and running like you just said quickly because you've done it now twice with your team like what's changed or maybe you just hired two rock stars but I'm kind of curious if you have any advice for companies. So I think the first and most important thing it's not just one thing and I think I said this and last time we talked everyone thinks very like day and night type of thing it's not just one or another so like we do have documentation it's better we know the things we need to do and we have a document in cool.

We have other documentation that just guide you through things because right what you have to remember is when you set up an onboarding partner their time is being spent there and that is what we want but you know you over here like hey you're new go and google stuff and try and figure out yourself documentation is meant to try and short term some of those things right and then the other thing too is like we have this internal technical writer who redid the documentation on the computer setup works fantastically better now But all these little things are certain add up and they're compounding is really what we're trying to create right?

And I've gotten better at it. My team I always ask a new person give feedback to your company What's good? What's bad? What's slow? What's fast and build that in so the next time someone comes in again compound build compound build I love that. I love that a lot What's what's what's maybe some things that that have been glaring maybe one thing that's been glaring in your onboarding process? That you really have tried to address recently Oh, that's a good question. Uh, I'm not blaring, but just more, just kind of a bump in the road. I would say that it probably has for us been our local developer setup is it is, it's a, there's a bit of, there's a bit of time involved to get our computers where they need to be because of the complexity of our application.

Like we have a mono repo. So it's just, there's a lot more things to be able to be ready to go. So having the documentation and making that more efficient has been for us one of the bigger pain points that we've had to solve That makes sense that makes sense. I want to get to two comments that came in Barrett This is going back to Negotiations and knowing your worth worth is more financial got to consider your cost of personal sanity as well And I want to I want to talk about this for a second Go back go back to a little bit of know your worth here.

I have talked to so many developers recently that are actually happy in a non stressful role because they've developed side hustles over COVID and they wanna continue to do the side hustles like as the world's opening back up. And so I will tell you this, listen, I've, I listen, if you just wanna go get bread as I say and just go and go get paid and you don't have a side hustle like just go, I'm cool with that. But I've talked to two individuals recently and the last at least three months that have been like, you know what? I'm happy where I'm at. Could I make more money?

maybe, but this job allows me like the sanity to be able to go do my side hustle, which I, we don't talk about that enough that at the end of the day, you, you may not, you don't have to have a job that burns you out. You need a job that gives you some work like balance, but some people like the grind and I respect that. But Dan, it's, yeah, it's do what's best for you. And yes, absolutely. Like you might want something that maybe pays a little less, but you're far more happy or you're getting benefits like you might be like, hey, I really need great health insurance and I pay get paid less but this company is awesome at that and that's good for my family.

Correct. That's okay but but we do need to say one thing though and I've changed my tune on this. I personally think it's okay to also go after the money. Like a lot of people are like, well, you got to like you know you do what makes you happy like, yes that's important but yeah, get paid. Why is it wrong to also be like if we're saying it's up to you and you want like why couldn't you also be someone that's like yeah I go for the money. If you do a bad job like yeah Maybe not then, but it's okay to go and strive to make good compensation.

There's nothing wrong with that. Absolutely. Absolutely Chris comes in and goes documentation is great so long as it's good as long as it's good always have to be improving it Listen, I not a developer But that's one thing I keep here and kind of a consistent theme. I think the whole slowdown to speed up I think is incredibly applicable in this situation Side house for the win. I love it at Christina, it's good to see you. Elliot, what are the biggest things that the best successes in hiring are doing in your onboarding? What can be emulated by new hires? What are the biggest things that the best successes in hiring?

So I guess the two people that you brought on that crushed it recently, how can new hires emulate them? So the most, as far as giving value back to the company, and I make this a very clear upfront expectation is like take notes, tell me what's working, what's not working, and then feed that back into, in this case, my guy Priyanka who is running or onboarding for my team, but make sure you send that stuff back because the next person never gains the benefit if they don't know what's going on. And I don't want to have to always like FBI style interview you to get every nut and green out.

Like your job is to help improve that. So contribute on your own and know that those things are helpful. What else have they done? Um, I think maybe two is they've been able to thrive in the ambiguity because there's a lot of stuff that, you know, even I don't know the answers to, but they're like, hey, like, I know this is overwhelming or can be and there's a lot, but I'm going to sink my teeth in and try and figure that you know what? Actually, you know, one thing that's I can suggest to any side of the table, one of the upfront to do is I give every person that starts is go have a one-on-one with everybody on the team and spend that 30 minutes.

One of them started building some relationships but two to learn and see those things and as they're getting bombarded with all this information and learning, I think that's one of the reasons they've been like wildly more successful is because they're getting so much as much as it might be overwhelming at times. Things to learn and know because they're going and taking that into their onboarding to do lists type of thing and it's making them work. I love that and I encourage people to do the same thing too. I always say, I say listen, my way is not the highway. There are other people on my team who do it better than I do.

So just meet with them, soak it up, take notes, ask questions, I love that. Hi, Chris, like or not, the money makes world go around absolutely. I love Elliot's comments here. Side hustles are the way to get the experience for your next role. You can get paid dirt and the side hustle and turn that into a 20K bump in your next role. You know, you made me think of something with the side hustles, because I love it, because I do my conference, right? Like that's my side hustle. react conference here in Chicago, React Blue. One thing that I've noticed, everybody knows, of course, Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk, they're billionaires.

And I was like, well, I'm gonna be a billionaire. Like, I don't know, for those of you that have a side hustle or want a side hustle, making an extra like five grand a year is tons of money still. Like you don't have to make a billion dollars a year. Like, five, 10 grand a year. And that's still a good amount of money. Like that's what I do with my watch pie hustle. And it's great. And I don't go nuts, but I love it and I make some extra money. So I think it's gotta be this crazy amount of money to bring up your compensation overall.

I love it. If people need watches, hit up, hit up. Yolanda, does more money come with not having a good work-life balance? No. No. It can, though. Right. It really depends. I can tell you, so one of my mentors, he's an engineering manager at Netflix. Obviously, Netflix pays very well. Actually, higher than most. And he cuts it off at five. He doesn't overwork. He's not stressed. He loves what he does. He loves his team. So you got to get to know the company. And maybe I'll say this and Taylor, this is on the getting hired side of things, is that you do have to remember companies are trying to pitch you and you're not going to see everything between the cracks until you get into the job.

But that's how it goes. So you do your best through interviewing questions, research, talking to others who've worked there. People know the industry. You try to uncover as much as you can, so you can find out, am I going to be sacrificing those things if I go to this place, even if the money's really great? I love that. I love that. So Dan as we wrap up here again, time has flown by like it always Any last You know encouraging words We don't have to we got a we got a comment here Connor. What's up Connor best thing I did at my new role was schedule one on ones with all the ancillary team members I'd be more connected with in the future took detail notes and everyone I Feel so much more connected department as a company's whole.

Yeah, I mean listen You know, you have to take it upon yourself to get connected, right? I think I'm going to say this. I think there is a lot of responsibility that weighs on the hiring managers and the organization to make sure you feel accepted. But I also think that's like 60%. The other 40, 40% in my opinion, again, that could be way off. But another 40% in my opinion really needs to be on you. What are you doing to get connected from day one? and a mittress to your thoughts. Absolutely. If you think that it's all 100% your manager and the team that are going to get you onboarded, that you need to reset your own expectations.

Like, that's part of your thing is you have to get yourself engaged in learning to be successful. You get the tools from the company and your team and your manager, put that far from the entire picture of it. So I'm 100% with you. I love that. I love that. So Dan, any last comments, things, words of wisdom that you want to lead the people with as we wrap up here? Sure. So I think, let me think here. So I think the things that really bubble quickly is, one, just don't be scared or intimidated by companies. Like, I know Taylor, you're on the other side on this one, but I will say this.

Companies do, they take advantage of the situation, the sense that it is money, and they are in always some sort of leverage position. But don't be scared. Be confident. Know what you're worth. And don't be afraid to put yourself out there and try something. just be reasonable about it. Don't go over the top and keep trying as well. Also, too, last quick thing is, if you're interviewing a lot of places or doing it just to practice, which you should totally do, practice the negotiation if you get to an offer stage. Figure out what it takes. How do you tweak? Oh, and what's that book by Chris Voss, the FBI negotiator?

I have no idea. I don't read books. Oh, man. I know what you're talking about, though. You're not the first person that's brought this up. I think it's Chris Voss. the one of the FBI negotiators he wrote a book on negotiating highly highly advise you read it maybe Taylor could help and get the name after to share but really advise reading that book for all of you. I love it I love it well y'all thanks again for hanging out with us today. So again I'm off for the rest of the week go connect with Dan Dan's a fantastic voice and and and and all things hiring and is a great resource again just want to give another shout out render ETL go check it out use the code GC2-0 I'd obviously guidance counselor 2.0.

Now see you in June. Dan, thanks for hanging. Feel free to stand for a quick minute. Y'all, thank you for hanging out with us today. And I'll see you all next week. Peace. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode, and I am very grateful. Because you know why? There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes, and I myself rarely finished an entire episode. So I appreciate you so, so much for listening. Quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the App Store. I want this to be discoverable to others and the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it.

Please, like, right now. Unless you're driving, then don't do it. So, thank you again. If you need to reach out to me, Taylor at Vaco.com or at T.S. and on all social media handles and I hope you have a fantastic day.