finding your truth w/ anthony mays

full transcript

auto-generated from the audio, so expect a few typos. the audio is the source of truth.

Hello, hello. Thanks for listening to Guidance Counselor 2.0. Listen, I want to give you a quick rundown of what this podcast is and what you're about to get into as you listen to these episodes. We had Guidance Counselors in middle school. We had Guidance Counselors in high school, but we didn't really have Guidance Counselors in college and now as professionals, we don't really have anybody to turn to to ask a quick question to learn something about the job search or to navigate your career. And so that is what I want this podcast to be for you. I want it to be a tool for you to navigate the job search and your career.

So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you need to reach me, Taylor at vaco, VACO.com is how to get in touch with me old-fashioned email social media at tdesntesnyn. And finally, please rate and review this in the app store because I want this to be discoverable for others so they can navigate their careers. Hope you enjoy the episode. Anthony, give the people what they want. Who are you? What do you do? And then we'll go from there. Yo, what's up everybody? I'm Anthony D. May's former soccer engineer at Google left February 1st from there to go full time with more of a lot of my consulting where I'm helping folks.

Understand what they need to do to make their tech moves, understand that interview, think the long term about their career, but also working with companies and consulting my clients to help. from the other side of the bridge, understand how to receive, underrepresented talent, and how to deal with folks who maybe come from those underrepresented backgrounds. Of course not. Yeah, that's what I do. I love that, I love that. So I wanna go and dive in, because I think your story's incredible. I mean, you and I chatted a little off air, but I definitely want to kind of dive in. So Anthony, I'd love, I guess the first question that a lot of people are gonna ask is, why do you leave Google?

And I'm sure, I tell you what, If you had a nickel for probably every time somebody asked this dang question, you would have $5. So why'd you do it? You know, I keep asking myself that. I mean, there's something about leaving good money and benefits and great work relationships to do this. But the funny thing is that when I got to Google, it wasn't very long before I realized that I wasn't just a software engineer anymore. I was a software engineer in a voice, a software engineer building a platform, trying to bring more seats to the table, specifically for unrepresented folk. And so I was very glad that Google gave me a lot of bandwidth, a lot of runway to do the work that I get to do now.

And I just felt like I needed an opportunity to amplify that and to do even more. And so I know it's kind of weird. A lot of people think of Google Big Tech fan companies just like the pinnacle of your career. You can't do it better than that. But I think that there was still this hunger inside of me to just to try and see if I might be able to make some moves out here on these text streets. I love that. And I'm curious, Anthony. I mean, I think not everybody's wired like you. I think that's what makes you special. Where does that drive come from, man?

Like is there, I mean, can you talk about, you know, I guess maybe what's spurned in your life to try to get more seats at the table for individuals? Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, when I came to computers, I was first to second grade. I think it was second grade where I got to use a computer for the first time. And I remember thinking to myself, man, I really want to do this. I felt like this was cool. I felt like if I can do this every day, I'd be happy. And, you know, when you come from the hood of coughing, when you're a former physical sexual abuse victim, you don't feel like you have a lot of options.

So you got to figure out if this is going to work, right? If it's gonna be basketball, I need to commit hours a day. Now, if it's gonna be music, I need to commit hours a day. Now, I need to be the best. It's about having to just be okay. And so I went and, you know, I was trying to find, okay, so where am I chocking computer scientists at? Where am I, my people who look like me, who are careful where I come from, who are operating in space? And I tell people all the time, hilariously, the black person I saw using computers on TV at that time was Batman.

So I didn't have a lot of examples ahead of me. And it took looking to the innovators of the past in Black history, people like Gary De Morgan and Lewis H. Latimer, the two individuals after whom Morgan Latimer assaulted his name, and other individuals in Black history to see that there might be an opportunity for me in the future. And so I looked at the work ethic that they had to be the best at their craft, to innovative spaces where they weren't welcome. I looked at all of that and understood that I needed to do that and participate as part of that legacy. And so I feel like for me, it's just about having the framework, the legacy of Black history always in view.

I don't see myself as doing anything other than really participating in that, in the professional environment. And then just as a Christian, my whole life is about sacrifice, sacrifice for Christ. 100% Primarily, but you get the idea that this is just, This is just how I move. This is what I know. Well, no, and then I mean, I just got goosebumps with what you're saying because I think it takes a level of commitment and a level of sacrifice and a level of empathy and understanding that not many people have to be able to go, you know what? I'm leaving Google, this may not be the best thing, but I'm trying to amplify, right?

And that's what you said earlier, right? trying to be bigger than just maybe a line of code, right? Or trying to be bigger than just, you know, the one team. And so I'm just, again, I'm blessed to have you on the show and I think you're amazing. And so I want to go ahead and dive into, because I know we could talk about your story for the whole 30 minutes, but time flies by. So let's jump into the first thing. And that's your advice to individuals who are early in their career that wanna jump into Fang. What's some advice, Anthony, that you may wanna impart on these individuals?

Yeah, yeah. So my first advice is to slow your role, just straight up. There's so many people that wanna, they're just like, I'm gonna go to this boot camp. I've been at this boot camp for six months. Now I wanna get into the Fangs. And I'm like, yo, wait up. I'm not saying it's impossible. Sure. Absolutely do it. Sure. You have to understand the kind of work, the mindset, the mentality that goes into doing something like that. I often use professional sports as a great analog because it's very visible public. A lot of people say, I'm probably observed professional sports as a kind of way.

You're not going to go out and do six months of learning how to play basketball and then jump over to the LA Lakers and try to go out the way the leg is a pain. I was not saying maybe right now you could. You could have a look, but. They might need that kind of talent, but you know, it's, you're not just gonna go and expect to get a roster spot. Like, no, you've got to, there's a whole mindset behind it. There's a whole work ethic behind that. And I think a lot of people are looking for the magic bullet, you know, they're looking for the overnight success and not realizing that you need to have a plan.

you need to be thinking, you know, from everything, from your resume and how that fits the job descriptions to how are you gonna navigate the different kinds of interviews and all that stuff. And, you know, someone, for me it seems easy because I've been in this space for 20 years. Yeah. You know, and I failed the move interview once and did it again, it was successful on the second try. So I have a lot of this context and experience. And, you know, but I had to learn a lot of that stuff hard way. Sure. But you know, if you're just getting into this game, you know, you need to understand there's a lot that you have to unlearn and get on this kind of new wavelength.

And I think that once you start changing your mindset and understanding what this is, that helps you to be more successful and to build a sustainable plan. Because I think there's a lot of folks out here trying to break their neck, you know, and you know, don't get me wrong, the hunger and the drive, especially with folks having the tools that I didn't have when I was coming up, like, yeah, you should be able to do this a lot faster than I did it. But that still doesn't mean it's going to happen overnight. 100%. So you've talked about hard work about your story growing up and how you needed to be the best.

And now you're talking again about hard work with Fang. Do you feel like there is a level, I'm interested in your thoughts, right? Because you've worked at Fang and now you do your own thing and you help and coach and you're in it, you're probably in it more now than you were at Google, do you feel like a lot of people think they have this entitled syndrome, especially with the way the market is right now? And again, I could be wrong. I think I'm seeing it a little bit on my end where I think people think they could just show up and get a job because of the way the market is.

Do you have thoughts on that? And then also do you think people maybe are lacking the work ethic to get into a thing? Yeah. So, you know, I don't know that it's necessarily that the folks are lacking the work ethics. A lot of there's two things you need. You need information and you need the work ethic. And if you have the wrong information, the right work ethic, you're going to fail. If you, if you, you know, if you, I think I said they're wrong. If you have the right information, but not the work ethic, you're going to fail. If you don't have the right information, but you do have the work ethic, you get the same result.

So you need to have both of those things together and combined. And so I think that folks usually suffer from one of those two issues. And again, that's not to say, when I talk about hard work, I really mean just about being diligent at what you do, being thoughtful about it and applying yourself. Hard work could be 30 minutes a day. I'm just going to be consistent with this thing and make sure that come hell of high water, I'm going to be carving out that time and dedicating myself. So it doesn't necessarily mean that you're just grinding all the way every day, right? It just means you're going to get bigger and thoughtfulness to the plan.

And to be clear, there's more opportunity than there ever has been before. It's a lot easier for you, I think, in these days and times to make the right connection that gets you that first job. So I don't want to negate that. And certainly if there's anything that I've learned as entrepreneurs that, you know, some connections can get you through some doors. Yeah. Well, I want to talk. Well, let's talk about that briefly, right? So what's, what's kind of your advice to building connections? I talk about all the time. People are tired, so I'm not even going to say anything. What's your advice, man? Because I just feel like people they don't get it.

Like, like your social network is your social currency. Like that is it. And so like, what some recommendations you have for people for that? Yeah, it's crazy. A lot of people think about social network and totally forget the social part of it. I mean, you know, you can't just, it is the same rules that apply in the real world or the same rules that apply in the digital world. Like if you're trying to hit me up on LinkedIn, I'm looking for connection. And I'm not talking about the connection button. I'm talking about like, yo, what's going on? You know, how you doing? Let me tell you a little bit about myself.

What are you trying to do? Yeah. To know each other, expressing interest in our interest and having opinions and all that stuff. being social is the key part of using a social network. And so it's important to do that. It's also important to be visible about who you are and willing to put yourself out there in your work and representing that in the right ways. And so, I said all the time, we have so many tools for communication, but we've never been worse at communicating. So good. So true. And we really need to think about how we, again, put in the work to communicate well and to do those things.

And so, you know, for me, I would be endeavoring to connect with as many people as possible to have those general conversations, to put my stuff out there. And I think of all the tools that I learned throughout my computer science education, the most important tool was writing. The most important tool was how to communicate with other engineers and other smart people. That more than anything else, you can learn a lot of these technical concepts on your own. You can go and pick up books or watch YouTube videos or do boot camps and all this other kind of stuff, but that communication, that writing, that matters, I think, so much more, and is highly translatable, whether you're a tech or any other industry.

And so knowing how to hone those skills using social networks platforms, whatever tool you choose, that matters. And that can open up doors for you that wouldn't have been open before. I mean, just take my own life, an example over the past eight years. I spent eight years at Google. I thought I was just gonna be an engineer. I thought I was just gonna be riding code every day. But somebody figured out I could talk. And I started writing articles and doing speeches and flying all over the place to address crowds large and small about what it takes to be successful in tech, about how to hire another Anthony Mays, about how to do this work and be successful in this industry.

And that has carved out more opportunity for me than writing code ever has. So I think that there's, we're thinking about how we build our brand and our platform. I know for some people that probably still sounds a little sketch. Yeah, people still probably roll their eyes with that too. Yeah, oh, personal love. Oh, man, grand. Yeah, I mean, but you, there's in a time where your online presence says more about you than it ever has before and is documented. It doesn't go away, right? People still like, you imagine. Can you imagine with kids? I think you and I probably made a close statement. Can you imagine, can you imagine if TikTok was around with your kids?

Right. Right, right, right. Exactly. You know, and I'm mindful of that. Like, I don't want to put anything up today that I'll regret my kids saying later on. Yeah. You know, but, but I understood that early, you know, and I had to go through the Facebook purge. Y'all know what I'm talking about, right? Where you go through your paper? You're pro-fonded, like, ooh, no, I think I need to go ahead and delete this. Yeah. You know, but I've understood that that's important. And, and, you know, I think folks who who are coming in the tech and looking to find opportunity to engage on different pathways, you just need to be cognizant of how you're a building relationships and be representing yourself.

100%. And just being very intentional about everything to you, right, everything that you post and putting that together towards the ends that you want to accomplish. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Justin, what's going on, buddy? It's good to see a big dog. So I wanna reiterate what Anthony said and I did not pay Anthony to say this just for the record. But I've been so bullish on writing lately. I literally was in, I was, I went to see a show this week at the rhyme in the Nashville. And I went with a buddy of mine, I actually did music in a previous life, moved up here to do music in Nashville and then became a tech recruiter, go figure.

But, so he's still doing music. And he and I were in the car and we were talking about college, which is a whole another conversation. We're not gonna get into that right now. But basically, we both agreed, we both were business, business grads. And we both agreed that we wish we did writing. And I've talked, Anthony, recently, I'm interested in your thoughts. I've actually talked about people writing their story down in a journal, like I'm talking pen and paper, because one of the biggest issues that I see is people can't talk about what they've done, what they've accomplished, things that they've moved the needle on, even just their history.

And so I tell people to write and even more so if you want to not journal, tweet. Twitter has been the best thing for my writing skills. So I didn't know if you had any more thoughts on that. No, absolutely. It's funny. I use LinkedIn as that kind of journal. Because I can't ever remember the stuff that I do. Like even since February 1st, I left Google. I've done so many incredible amazing things that I never could have dreamed of. And I can't remember half of them. I really can't. Well, also dudes too. So that's another piece. Yeah. So the struggle is real. And, you know, there's, if I had journaled throughout my life, I'd already had probably New York Times best-selling memoir on the street by now.

But like I'm working with my agent, I've been working with a writer. They're just like, you know, I need you to talk about this thing that happened when you were eight years old. I'm like, man, that's when I was eight years old, I can't. I'm about to make stuff up, you know, it's hard. But the problem is that you don't realize the value your story until you start to share it. It's still until someone starts to take a look at that. And that was a struggle for me. Like it's easy to share my story now because I've been practicing for like 15 years. But I didn't understand the value of what it meant to come from confidence to Google to be that part of that 2% of black folks who were working at Google at the time or the one or two who were in a type of career.

I didn't fathom that. And so a lot of folks now, I see them making moves I see them transitioning into tech and I'm just like, you have the story. You don't even know it yet, but I see it. And I'm trying to encourage people to think about that and figuring out how to frame the value. And you see this on the resume all the time. You know, I'm telling people that their resume sucks day in and day out. So you want to go right ahead because I'm going to tell you it's horrible. I'm because a lot of times people are doing amazing things and I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll look at the bullet point.

I say, you need to tell me a little bit more about this. You know, And in the course of conversation, they tell me all about this magical stuff that they did and how they earned $100,000 in additional revenue for that month or whatever it is. And I'm just like, okay, why isn't any of that in your resume? You think somebody's just gonna call you and interview you, just because you printed this stuff on a nice paper or just because your format is tight? Like, no, that's not how it works. You have to put those measurable numbers and stats on your resume so that people can clearly see what you're doing and then give them a call back.

And so, you know, it's things like that where the more that you practice that as a regular habit, the easier it is to put that on your resume or in these other avenues to be successful. I love that. I love that. So there's a few questions coming in again. I'm seeing everybody in the chat. Thank you all so much for showing up today for Anthony. I appreciate it. Also makes me look better for Anthony, which is nice. So does networking on job sites like LinkedIn help you get in the door with big tech companies like Google? Are people at Google receptive to sliding the DMs?

Yeah. So first of all, using those platforms to get in the big tech, absolutely. I got my job at Google through LinkedIn. So LinkedIn recruiter hit me up three or four times on LinkedIn, and that was 10, 11 years ago when I first got hit up. So yes, they work. LinkedIn is the tool that many recruiters you're using the source talent. So be on the platform, build your brand, make it make sense, and best money if you got to. So that's the first thing. Second thing is sliding into DM. So yeah, that's fine, but you got to be smart about it. Yes. No, hey. Don't do this.

Don't do this. Right, you know, don't do this. Oh, yeah, take a look at my resume. Now what? Why? You haven't given me anything to go off of, right? And so, yeah, I know that I talk to recruiters all the time. The struggle is real. Don't just be spam people your resume. That's not helpful. You need to talk about what position you're applying for, you know, provide the link. You know, how can you provide benefits to the company? That's another thing that people get mixed up all the time. Company don't care nothing about what you want. So they care about what they want. Yeah. So you need to be talking about how you provide value to them, and give them a reason to pay you the big bucks and the good money.

So all of that matters. And so on this time of resource, you can go to Google this, how to slide in a recruiter's DM. Like, we talked at Nazim about this. It's fine to do. You just need to know the rules of engagement. I'm not just going to walk up to you as a recruiter and be like, yo, here's more resume. Like you need context, you need to understand how it is that I'm meeting a need for you. And so I need to do my hope. What kind of recruiter are you? What positions are you hiring for? Yeah. And kind of make that statement. And so I think you'll have more success when you have a plan for this, right?

And I'm paying you that. 100%. Put that forward. I love that. Let's see here kind of going through everything. that Charlie comes in. I had empathy as a real important quality too. I think we're talking about interviewing. And I think, and again, we only have eight minutes time flies. I knew this would happen, but I think empathy is at the forefront. I think especially the last two years, we've all been in this thing together. We've all have our own stories and experiences dealing with this time with COVID. And I think empathy is shot up to the top of the list. I think as leaders in organizations right now, but also too, I always talk about empathy in the job search, right?

Hey, listen, it's not always you, right? I mean, sometimes budget cuts, reallocation, like it just sometimes doesn't work. And I think having empathy and deploying that on the people you're interviewing with, because let's face it, the, now I'll come up with get their first choice. And if you're their second choice, you deploy empathy and our kinds, who do you think they're going to call next? Yeah. I mean, and think about it, there's a whole bunch of context. I mean, you know, when I'm doing the interview, I'm thinking about, okay, if I have $250,000 and $300,000 to spend on a tech salary and benefits in this and any other, what would I be looking for?

Right? How much, what am I gonna take? You know, what kind of candidates do I want to have? Right? As entrepreneur now thinking about hiring and how to scale my own business, I'm like, this ain't no joke. Like I'm looking for serious people. I'm looking for skilled people. You know, I don't have a lot of time to spend wrapping people up. So I'm looking for people who already have those skills. So I'm thinking about it from that perspective. Or, you know, when I'm in the interview room, that interviewer is probably nervous like me. And as an interviewer, I'm nervous. That, I'm nervous too. And so I want to be helpful to them and kind of bring them along as they're trying to help me and bring me along.

And so, you know, empathy shows up in a whole bunch of different places. And, you know, there's limits to that too, right? I can't get in your head to figure out how you feeling. I could get that wrong. And so, and I think especially in the work that I do as someone who tried to be helpful to people, I try to have this limit to where, I wanna kind of feel what you're feeling, but not too much that I get dragged and sucked into, you know, the urgency or the depression, whatever it is you're feeling. I have to be able to stay somewhat guarded, I remember who I am.

And I think that there's been times where I've felt like I've lost my own identity in this tech space because I'm absorbing everything else that I'm seeing you feeling. And I think since I've left move, I've had to re-invent my identity just a little bit to come figure out to get closer to where I truly am. 100%. That makes total sense. So and again, thank you all for the comments. I do want to hit on one topic here in the last five minutes with Anthony. So we could have a whole entire episode negotiations and we're going to fly through it in five or so minutes.

What's just some general tips, man? Like, just give the people something. So number one, always do it. Always negotiate. Always negotiate. Never just take that first offer in sign your name. Don't do it. Even if you get a docu-sign link that's ready to go, stop. Right? So first, always negotiate. To do your homework. So one of the best things, easiest thing you can do is find somebody in that position, be like, yo, does this look good? Or does it not? You could find somebody at a different company, you can find a friend, something like that. Find somebody and be like, yo, here's what I'm getting, does that sound fair or not?

If you let me ask you this, do you have friends for what you're doing now that you can bounce pricing off of for you? Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely I can. Yeah. And now do I use that network as often as I should? No, I feel I'm still learning stuff myself, but I got a pending email, I got a saying to somebody about some numbers and get that checked out. I love it. So yeah, but that's, that's important. Um, another thing that's super important to do when it comes to negotiation, realize that everything is negotiable. Everything is negotiable. It may not sound like it's negotiable, but if they want you enough, if the opportunity is right, everything is negotiable.

Yes. One thing that I regret not doing is I'm really taking a hard look at my employee contract to really understand all the things that are in there to understand, you know, what is this, what about IP, you know, is the company gonna own everything that I dream about in my sleep, right? And have that conversation, you know, and just understanding the different levers. I didn't understand all the levers in my conversation when I had it, you know, because there's cash, that's what we all understand the easiest, but there's also, right? But there's also help, but there's also, you know, insurance and all these other kinds of things that plug in together.

If you're not educated about these things, go get educated and make that decision, right? And don't let anybody rush you is another part of negotiation. Somebody's like, yo, we gave you an offer I need an answer in three days. This is life impacting stuff, right? If you're gonna be at this company for another three to five years or longer, you need to take time to really think about what that relationship is gonna be. Yeah, yeah. And so don't let anybody rush you into a decision. If somebody seems like somebody is being extra pushy, just be like, you know what? I'm good. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and I totally agree with that.

John Townsend goes, I'm dealing with this right now. I have a hundred questions on it. Yeah, I mean, again, everybody, but I think you need to be asking more questions. And I said this, I say this a lot, but I think you should be asking, I'm not saying you should talk yourself out of offers, but you should be asking that many questions where you are trying to poke holes in everything. And I know that's hard for people, especially junior developers, I understand that, but you have to make sure you protect yourself like Anthony said, right? I mean, I definitely heard some horror stories. And it's easier to do that when you have three offers on the table than one.

Sure, sure. Yeah, I mean, yes. Yeah, because when you, and I tell people, I teach my candidates like, look, if you want to apply for this one company, you really have your heart on that? Sure, go apply to that, but then also apply to a couple of others. What will happen to you? You just start saying, yo, these folks are offering this, but you're not offering that. Like, what's up? Can we talk about where that gap is? Cause that's kind of important to me. Yeah. Like, and you just won't have that frame of reference unless you have that data, unless you have those offers on the table.

It was like, oh no, I know somebody would be willing to offer it to me because they already did. So what are you gonna do? Yeah. You know, and I think that's, it's important to do when you're thinking about negotiation. Do you have five more minutes? I want to ask you one more question. Let's do it. All right. How can hiring managers help more unrepresented individuals in tech? Because I am trying my best to help educate hiring managers as well. And quite frankly, I kind of don't know what to say. So I would love to learn from you on some things that I can help educate hiring managers on.

Yeah, so hiring managers know that they want talent, and they want to do it as quickly as possible. And a lot of times they're going to rely on biases, on biases in order to make that happen. So teaching a manager how to be thoughtful and to slow down in the process is going to be important, and really deal with, OK, do you really need all these 12 things? Do you just really need the six to get moving? Because with the six, I can really work with that. you've got 12 things you want in half of that stuff doesn't matter, right? Right. And so I think that's one thing that's important.

But then also, managers need to be transparent. They need to be more transparent. And I know that there's a lot of stress and pressure on the manager to watch what they say and how they move and all this other stuff. But I think that when you're bringing people in, you need to be invested in your team and also be transparent to the extent possible about what it takes to get to your level, right? About how you're seeing things, what those needs are. And I think that that helps. One of the things I love is that my previous manager at Google did a really great job of like, look, Anthony, I'm just going to level with you.

Here's what it is. Boom, boom. Here's what we're trying to do. And as part of that, I had to hear some uncomfortable things. But I knew that he was being 100 with me. And that counted for a lot. that kept me in my seat. And I think things like that matter. So managers need to understand that they are empowered. And that's one of the things that's, I feel like my whole career, I've been trying to teach engineers and managers that they are empowered to make certain moves. And I know that a lot of folks just talking about that middle management, right? The executives get it, the people on the ground floor, grassroots, they don't have anything to lose.

It's the people in the middle who feel like they're squeezed on both sides. I'm just like, you have the most power to really institute change, to really move the needle, but you got to be willing to own that. You got to connect to your purpose and to the company's purpose to really bring that to fruition and be willing to take that risk. You know, and again, there's an empathy that I need to have as someone who's consulting with that manager, right, to understand where they're coming from and to just kind of come alongside and be helpful. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that. Well, that was great.

Well, y'all, thanks for hanging out. Anthony, thank you, man. That was great. We obviously just clip the surface, touch the surface, whatever saying it is. But, listen, go connect with Anthony on LinkedIn. Anthony, what's your Twitter handle? Yeah, I'm Anthony D is in Duane diversity Anthony D maze may. Ys on all the things You can't remember that just type in Compton and Google into your favorite search engine. I'm the first result I love it. I love it and and again Listen if you like what you heard today from Anthony and you want to see him in person like I know I do and I will Render ATL so check it there is a code.

I'm GC 2-0. I don't know what it is yet worst case It's a free hug by me, which never bad thing so but but y'all y'all have a great rest of your Friday Anthony stay on real quick as I end it. We'll love to say bye to you and y'all have a great one connect with Anthony And I'll see you all Monday. Peace Hey, you did it you listened to an entire episode and I am very grateful because you know why there's a lot of podcasts out there There's a lot of episodes and I myself rarely finished an entire episode So I appreciate you so so much for listening quick reminder please rate and review this podcast in the App Store.

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