tips to hiring managers w/ luca cipriani

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Hello, hello. Thanks for listening to Guidance Counselor 2.0. Listen, I want to give you a quick rundown of what this podcast is and what you're about to get into as you listen to these episodes. We had Guidance Counselors in middle school. We had Guidance Counselors in high school, but we didn't really have Guidance Counselors in college and now as professionals, we don't really have anybody to turn to to ask a quick question to learn something about the job search or to navigate your career. And so that is what I want this podcast to be for you. I want it to be a tool for you to navigate the job search and your career.

So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you need to reach me, Taylor at vaco, VACO.com is how to get in touch with me, old fashioned email, social media at T D S and T D E S S E Y N. And finally, please rate and review this in the app store because I want this to be discoverable for others so they can navigate their careers. Hope you enjoy the episode. Luca, enough with me running my mouse. Give the people what they want. Who are you? What do you do? And we'll go from there. Yeah, first of all, IP Friday to everyone.

So thanks for being your guest. And also here in Italy is sunny today. So I think I'm gonna enjoy my weekend as well. So short introduction, Luca and engineering manager at Jim do with a past career as a very technical person, being myself coding, looking into Linux and Raspberry IoT stuff all the time. I worked for Arduino as well and now I'm in the managing team. Always looking for new challenges. With some I as internet in the field and that's exactly what I look for in every challenge today. that's awesome. So, so Luke and I, I think we are connected on Twitter, the power of Twitter, again, I really practice what I preach.

I think I tweeted like, I don't know how we got connected. I think I tweeted something and you found me or I found you. I don't know. But I love Lucas background. Especially when it comes to leadership. I can tell he is thoughtful when it comes to this stuff. So, so we're going to dive into three topics today. We're going to dive into the importance of recruiting as a hiring manager. I've touched on this with a few on this with a few managers, most notably Ryan Burgess and Jim Young from Netflix and Kyle Welch from Eventbrite. Those managers actually are out there recruiting on their own.

I think it's incredibly important to talk about that. We're also going to talk about mid-level expectations, mid to senior level expectations for engineers. And then finally, we're going to round out basically about aligning your company and how to do that through OKRs. So we're going to talk about that today. So, Luca, I want to dive in. We're recruiting as a manager. I think a lot of managers, and they jump into management, they think they're done. They think they don't need to work through. The networking is for job seekers. The networking is not for hiring managers. So what would you tell hiring managers that makes it?

And then, yeah, good luck. Because it's going to be extremely challenging, especially nowadays. I mean, you need to create that connection and feeling that you really know what the Future candidate is going to listen about. And then obviously the best candidates are not the one that are looking for a new job. That's also extremely true, especially nowadays. And some companies can have obviously, I know, put a lot of money on the table and some others cannot. And especially in those cases, it's extremely important to have some kind of personal touch and just contact them link heading as you say on Twitter or whatever. I'm used to take a look very frequently to open source contribution for especially for developers and engineers.

So I take a look very often to give up and see what are the most interesting projects if people push frequently if they make interesting questions or if they propose something new then even if it's not accepted now I see if they they they propose something interesting to the community. That's very good for me. So sometimes I just jump in and send them an email or write a comment or contact them or link it into Twitter or whatever it is. It doesn't matter the medium. But then I just start a conversation. And then of course, if they want to deep dive, we can go even a bit more in detail about technicalities.

Otherwise, it just passed away. depends, but you know, at least in the worst case scenario, you knew someone else, which is already good by itself. Well, let me ask you this, because I'm trying to get people and a few more people are trying to injustice. Great to see you, Nikhil, Chris Beth, it's so wonderful to see you. I hung out with Beth this week in Miami in person for the first time. So Beth, you're wonderful. Where, why do you think it's so important? Luca, that job seekers should put themselves out there on the internet, right? Because right now, you're saying, Hey, I find people through Twitter through LinkedIn through open source.

So everything you're saying, people have to put themselves out there. Why is it so important to put yourself out there as a job seeker right now in today's world? Because it's very, very, I'm sure that someone here in the world is the perfect fit for what I'm looking for. And on the other side, probably is the same, but it's extremely are we are, I don't know, seven billion nowadays in the world. It sounds about right. That sounds about right. So best if you, of course, try to promote yourself as possible or just go to a conferences. Nowadays, it's finally, again, possible even to meet on site, where if we went there or even online conferences and or in events like this one, there is a light chart where people share opinions.

and we know each other. So it's extremely important to show the others what we are able to do because you never know who is looking. And that's great. I mean, even for myself, I started my career this way and people started paying me for something that I was doing for free, like doing Linux contribution. So that's really kind of insane. And it's magic and it's even simpler and simpler because we have more tools, we are more people connected. It's a bit easier to show what you are able to do, even just like, you know, created a website now is a matter of minutes, no more of lots of work or just sharing the disk.

Yeah. Do you, so let's say a resume comes to you or somebody comes to you, Do you try to go find them on LinkedIn, on Twitter, real fast, just to see if they put anything out? Always. I very often look for GitHub links and Twitter account or whatever public is in here, almost before anything else. And because sometimes also some people probably are not, let's say extremely good at writing CV, But despite of that, they have still impressive ideas or skills. But they are just not that good at writing a CV and they shouldn't be penalized. So sometimes I even spend a couple of minutes is speaking with them if possible.

And that is a lot more insightful than just reading a CV online. That's so good. Are you, so say that one more time, that was pretty impactful. So you think that putting yourself out on the internet could easily take place of a cover letter. And almost save you a little bit. Like if your resume or CV is not good, but you're putting stuff out on the internet, that, and again, this is just you, right? This isn't a cross-board, just you. It actually saves you a little bit. It saves you dramatically, especially the higher your career. If you are able to create a network of people, you probably don't even need a CV or a cover letter.

I'm gonna tell you a very short story. So when I found the job at Arduino, I found the job at Arduino because I met one of the co-founder, Massimo Banzi, in a co-working space at the coffee machine. And we had a story. I'm, yeah, I'm done serious and you can ask him as well. That's awesome. That's exactly how we met. And there was no co-writer, no CV, nothing about that, but it just showed up, even a coffee machine saying, oh, I built this and this and he said, oh, I built this other thing, which is this technology. Let's see if we want to collaborate. So every opportunity, even talking together in front of a coffee machine, is an opportunity to learn someone else and show up.

I love that. I love that. So moving on to the next topic, again, I want to make sure we spend at least a decent amount of time on each topic today. Expectations of engineers. Now, I am seeing a lot of, I'm seeing right now in the market, and this is another conversation. We don't have to go down this route right now. You know, I'm seeing a lot of two year developers becoming seniors, right? Okay. You know, take that for what it is. I think that's a retention strategy, but we don't have to give that today. But how do you as a leader in engineering, said expectations with junior mid and seniors?

So of course, junior and senior doesn't mean a number of years of experience. Correct. But on the other side, if you want to be, I don't know, an impressive violinist, unless you are really some kind of genius, you take at least around 10 years. And even if you are extremely good at it, and I think it's pretty much the same with technology. So even if you are an exceptional individual, you will still need a lot of practice, regardless of how good you are. And that's one thing. On the other side, The big difference that I see between mid-level people and very eye-senior level engineer is not about technical skills at all.

Really? It's pretty much about how they collaborate with each other, how they manage, take over how they behave professionally. Like instead of saying typical sentence of a mid-level engineer, I would try to do that according with the deadline that you're asking me. This is not what I expect. I seriously prefer a senior engineer that said me, oh, no way we are gonna do that by next Friday. Really no way. It's way better if you give me three weeks and I do it properly. And that's fine. And we can have a discussion. Maybe we will negotiate on something and we find an agreement. So it's not about just trying, but it's more about being consistent.

deliver whatever you promise. Obviously, there are always pressure there is, I don't know, product manager can make you pressure on the product side, an engineering manager on the quality side, a level manager on numbers or on sales, whatever, it doesn't really matter. Always someone is going to put some kind of pressure on you. The important thing is that you also put some pressure on them in saying, you know, I know my thing, I know my field, better than you. And that's, I'm sure about what I can deliver and what I cannot. And being completely honest is way better than try to achieve something and not being there.

So, so in your mind, the biggest difference between the levels of engineering is almost how much pushback you get. Like, that's kind of what I'm I'm hearing is like, like, like really in your mind, when you talk about mids, it's, it's yes, sir, no, sir. Yes, ma'am, no ma'am, I'll get it done. But seniors, you actually really like your senior engineers, your architects, leads, whatever to be like, Hey, Luca, I don't think we're going to be able to do this at this time. Like that's one of the things that you look for. Yes, but also negotiate, let it wrong. Sure. I'm saying I can't do this, but if we negotiate on this, this, this, this, this, I can promise something else.

Or I don't know, give me two days more, and I will give you an extra destination, at least with a lot less uncertainty. So that's the attitude that I expect. On the other side, there is also the entire other part of the seniority, which is having an impact that is way beyond being a single contributor that right school or ship something. And it's like taking care of how the customers are using that piece of code, how they interact with designer, with product manager, how they can teach other people to become more efficient to learn something new. Yeah. So that's not smelly. I feel like too, and I'm interested with your thoughts on this.

I see that a lot in interviewing, right? So a lot of, when we talk about communication skills in the interview, it's about keeping the dialogue going. Right? It's not, hey, hey, hey person, do you know this? No? Yes. Indeed, about that, I always make some super simple, extremely trivial question about Git especially, but it's just, can be anything. And I also have audio reply. And sometimes I tell the people, oh, how do you grade yourself on technology X? When I say, okay, on level zero, you know nothing on level 10, you are the biggest expert on the earth. And some people, it doesn't really matter what they grade yourself in the first time.

Now they grade, let's say, they grade themselves like seven. Then I start making decently complex questions. And then if they go extremely bad in that part, there are two types of candidates, someone that's saying, oh, you just asked me something that is definitely not so important. So I'm still grilling myself seven. And some other than say, oh, really? I didn't know that. That's super interesting. Let me take a look and educate myself again. So probably, yeah, I would score myself maybe six, not seven, because it wasn't that. It's the awareness. It's the awareness. Yeah. Or you are senior, the more you are, I'm confident about what you know.

So it never happened that really a super senior person scored, I don't know, themselves like 10, never happened. But it happened sometimes with junior people, middle. Interesting, interesting. Well, I also feel like too, and I'm gonna chime in Sabrina chime in. Matureity and communication and honesty, would that be an appropriate way of understanding what is being said? Yes, I think so. I think so. Definitely. Yeah. Honestly, all over the place. If there is no honesty, there is no respect. And then no way we can collaborate together. Yeah. And I think too, what Lucas said, I see that a lot. And now here's the deal. I don't fault juniors in mids.

I think I fault the interview process because I think a lot of individuals feel like they They have to prove themselves in the interview process because of the way people usually set up the interview process. I think individuals like Luca, which is why I wanted to bring them on, I think and Luca, correct me if I'm wrong, all hiring managers are all good hiring managers. All y'all want to do is just get down to the roots of what somebody knows and doesn't know. It's not necessarily you're going to reject them if they don't know stuff. You're just trying to figure out what they know. Yeah, well, I currently there like, there is always a question that the interview is not going to answer because they don't know.

That's exactly what I'm looking for. Because we don't really want to evaluate people about what they know now, but what they are willing to know if they follow and work with us in, I don't know, one, two, three, seven years ahead. So I had a decent amount of of people working with me and other companies that were in the same company for like five, seven years, which is in engineering is pretty impressive, no? Maleda, exactly is the reason. So you can always learn something new. It doesn't matter what you know right now. As far as you understand that there is a gap and you want to learn something.

Yeah, I love that. Alex, Alex is good to see you, buddy. Alex goes, would you prefer a less experienced engineer with better communication skills to help architect solution over super techy developer that isn't strong in communication? I think this is the chicken before the egg question right here, but yeah, I am curious, Luca, your thoughts on this. Yeah, for me, it's like 100%. No, no, for sure, I will always prefer less experienced engineer. That's also why very often I actively look, and we as a company, we look for even junior people, because it's not just about itself and like having a good person that can grow, but it's also about the people that are mentoring them, they also grow while they are mentoring more junior people.

So of course, we'd have very super techy developer, you can be extremely fast, And, but also doubt that someone can be a super techy developer, not so strong in communication. So even some super popular developer, like I don't know, Linus Torvaz had problems with communication. And at some point of his career, he understood that he made mistake. And then he took some action to fix that. I mean, this is really showing seniority all the way. So, less experience developer engineer doesn't mean that is less senior, it's not just as a bit less experience. So you actually make an effort, and Alex, thank you again for this question.

You, so, Luca, you actually make an effort within your organization to actually go out and hire junior and mids, specifically because of the training, because of the willingness to learn. And also, I'm sure it's probably easier than finding a bunch of senior developers, too. Let's be totally honest. But I mean, is that a philosophy that you believe in and something you really try to implement at every stop? Yeah, it's also a great way for a mid-senior developer to become more senior. So if they don't have junior people to... Mentor. Teach something to an mentor or to make some useful pairing and they always meet someone that that really knows pretty much everything on the technical side.

It's not useful for them, really. It's a bunch of people. It can work maybe for some companies. Of course, I know there are big companies that only are very nice in your people, but then unless you are a billion dollar company, it's also extremely challenging on the other side. So a good balance of the two, I think it pays off in the line. speaking about balance, I'm kind of curious, how do you architect your teams from a personnel perspective? Is it like, two juniors amid a senior lead? Like, how do you I mean, just high level, how do you typically architect teams? In general, the more diverse your team the better.

And that also means having junior, I have been made having senior, the more diverse, the better, no matter what. Then, I don't have like the perfect team in my life. There is a no perfect team. Sure. And just more, the more it's the better for everyone. I love it. I love that so much. James comes in, so James, a former guest of the show. How would you want someone to tell you I'm willing to learn? That's a great starting point. And I was just like right there. Yeah, it's a good starting point. Of course, it's not enough. You need some basics and understanding, And that's fine.

But willing to learn is the right attitude. And because we keep learning, even myself, I started university again just two years ago. It's really fun to learn. Yeah, I think. That's awesome. I love that. Let's see here. So Barrett, another former guest of the show as well, also a manager leader in the tech space, has the same thing. I will take good communication skills over tech skills any day. Dominic, it's great to see you, James. Obviously, it's great to see you, Chris, Raymond. It's so good to see y'all today. Christina, a good balance is needed for a healthy team, 100%. And then yes, the more diverse the team, the better.

Yeah, I love that. I love that Luca. So let's go to the last topic. We got six minutes left. Time flies when we're having So, you know, we talked about alignment between tech and business off air and I think that's one of the biggest issues I think with engineering, with engineering departments, period. I think there's, I call it sales driven development, SDD, sales driven development. There's always a disconnect. How do you try to mend that disconnect in organizations? Yeah, this connection quite often comes from the fact that some tech department can turn themselves into a visual function factories, just add this and on this and on that.

And that doesn't scale very well because the business has to be sustainable. So whatever piece of software you produce, it should be maintained theoretically forever, or for until the internet is up, then it should work. Right. Yes, that's my vision. And then obviously, you need some very clear alignment between business and also sales, of course, because that's what base salary is also of engineers. Customers in the first phase, And customers and the entire customer journey is all about designing things together. And the developers has to be part of the design process. So they ask, as to know, they have to know what is going to be the user journey of that specific feature, even in the beginning.

So if they are producing a back end, how this back end is being used by the application and that starts values for our customer. That's the first question they should have. That of course is a matter of the business to try to extract value from the specific feature and sell it. And a good way to align everyone is to set objective and have something that is scientifically miserable in terms of curysiles. That's why usually I use OKR as a framework because because it's pretty flexible. And show those objective and carries us to the entire company and set them together. So they shouldn't be either top to bottom or too much bottom up, but it should be something we set together.

We have the strategy of the company, we have the core values, we want to provide more value to the user. Let's set an objective, try to understand what are the key values that are really moving into that direction. Once we agreed on that, we put the deadline and we try to achieve that. Then if it doesn't work and we put to the to Mars, if we go to the moon, it's still a good achievement. I love that. I love that. But even if we don't go to Mars, the moon is a good achievement. I, yeah, I feel like that's, I mean, I feel like a lot of times the software development teams are not involved in the design planning.

You know, I hear that all the time. So I'm glad you brought that up. I think another thing too, I think having clear measurables that is advertised across the company, I think that's incredibly important as well. I don't hear enough of that being talked about. I just don't. Yeah, also because in that way you will have unexpected people that are going to help you. So maybe you don't know that that person in a completely different apartment already had experience three years ago in another company on that specific topic that you are doing because they don't have enough visibility so they are not willing to help.

They just don't know. And as soon as you really have very few objective one maybe two at most and very few points that you analyze that you think are going to move yourself into this objective and you communicate, communicate, communicate, communicate all the time to the entire company, the more people can join the effort and help you in achieving those objectives. Transparency, I think that's huge. I know me, Alex, Alex is my boss. And he and I are working on transparency. I think always trying to communicate to each other. I think a lot of times people feel alone in organizations. And if they actually just talked about things they're going through and making it just public, maybe it's a business problem, maybe it's tech problem.

I think other people will be more willing to chime in. But people just need to know what you're doing so they can help you. And I think a lot of times in organizations that just doesn't happen whatsoever. So all right, Luca, time flew. I always lead the last minute or two for my guests to basically say anything else they want to say. So do you have any more wit wise words of wisdom on this Friday for everybody? Anything to the job seekers to hiring managers to culture leadership any last words of wisdom. Yeah, just keep trying, never give up really, and keep showing what you are able to do.

And as I said, I apply this also for myself. Be free to make mistake, we always do. And at the same time, use them to learn something you every single day. That's the recipe for success. I love that. I love that so much. Well, Luca, thank you again for hanging out with me today. I appreciate it from across the ocean. Stay on after we end. I want to say bye to you. But y'all, thank you again. Go connect with Luca on Twitter on LinkedIn. Again, wonderful thought leader around this stuff. And I'm very grateful to have him on the show. I hope you'll have a wonderful Friday.

Next week we are jam packed Monday. I actually have a speaker from react Miami. Will Johnson, he is a developer advocate at off zero. So he is coming on the show on Monday. So I will see y'all on Monday. Y'all have a great week and Luca, I appreciate you, ma'am. Thank you so much. Thank you. Bye. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode and I am very grateful. Because you know why? There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes and I myself rarely finished an entire episode. So I appreciate you so, so much for listening. Quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the App Store.

I want this to be discoverable to others and the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it. Please, like, right now. Unless you're driving, then don't do it. So, thank you again. If you need to reach out to me, Taylor at Vaco.com or at T. Destin on all social media handles. And I hope you have a fantastic day.