1.49 gpa college dropout to staff engineer with will johns, staff software engineer at the butterfly network

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Hello, hello. Thanks for listening to Guidance Counselor 2.0. Listen, I want to give you a quick rundown of what this podcast is and what you're about to get into as you listen to these episodes. We had Guidance Counselors in middle school. We had Guidance Counselors in high school, but we didn't really have Guidance Counselors in college and now as professionals. We don't really have anybody to turn to ask a quick question to learn something about the job search or to navigate your career. And so that is what I want this podcast to be for you. I want it to be a tool for you to navigate the job search and your career.

So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you need to reach me, Taylor at vaco, VACO.com is how to get in touch with me old-fashioned email social media at T D S N T D E S S E Y N. And finally, please rate and review this in the app store because I want this to be discoverable for others so they can navigate their careers. Hope you enjoy the episode. people. It's so good to see how this works. Alright cool, well, it's good to people what they want. Who are you? What do you do? And we'll go from there. Yeah, so I'm well.

It's may have been covered already. I am currently a bi-tidal staff engineer at Butterfly Network. It's a company that works in like medical space, specifically handheld ultrasound. It's pretty sweet place. That's cool. Historically, and like currently my like scope of work is covered everything. I started out in sort of a research and development position, working at a company, doing a lot of like spin up, trying to develop new product lines. I joke with people that I wasn't a full stack developer, I was a full stack, so I would start off in like PCB design software, design IOPs, fabricate them, and then write firmware back in front of them like the full kick bootle.

Literally the full gamut of it. Mm hmm. Since then, sort of like moved my way more towards software for a faster feedback loop, climbed up to the level on that and do a lot of work in like back-end and platform and infrastructure kind of stuff. I love it. I love it. So, you know, Will, I always chat with my guests probably one of my favorite parts of the show is just catching up with guests off air and I was like, Will, I was like, you know, tell me about your story, like, you know, what resonated and you know, you kind of start out, you're like, hey, like, I was, was I was a college dropout.

And you were like, I was on top of your GPA was what? 1.49 or something like that? Yeah, that's what it is on the transcript. So what's your encouragement, man? I mean, I think everybody in today's world feels like they need to go to boot camp or they feel like they need to go to college. And I'm interested to hear your thoughts. Hot tips. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like it starts out, when I was younger, people always ask you, is it OK? like, what do you want to be when you grow up kind of deals? My response was always an inventor, right? I got old to realize that that's not really a formal occupation.

So sort of transitioned into like, I wanted to do engineering. I wanted to make stuff. I may be to be a bit arrogant or confident. I feel like I have a pretty good knack for it. The problem is that I struggle in like traditional sense, right? So I think that there's sort of the stigma that in order to be successful, you have to have some sort of educational background. And that's more true depending on the field you're in. Sure. I think one of the great things about software is that it's less true there, right? It takes all kinds. Yeah. And what, so I'm interested, so went to college, dropped out.

How did you get that first job? So also just like to clarify that. So I went to college. I attempted college for about six years. I think I had that 1.49. I think I failed more classes than I passed by the end of it. some of that was part time, and then like, just sort of stop going at some point. Anyway, so about the second year in at the time I was working at Best Buy for, as a, or as an SEC Samsung experience consultant. So I didn't actually sell anything, but literally my job was to act as sort of like a face and advocate for Samsung and talk about stuff and help people learn how to use the devices.

Okay. Anyway, so Sky walks in one day. I've been here for a few months at this point and starts asking me about the new. This was like just when the Samsung watch came out, the first galaxy here. One second. The game and I was asking about it and specifically sort of asking about questions about putting your own applications on there, like sideloading apps, right? And so we got into that and rather than giving in the answer, probably expected of, oh, I'm not so sure we started talking about like how you would actually go about doing this and software it ran, like what operating system and differences between like normal Android development stuff.

Okay. End up talking with them for maybe an hour or so overall, covered up, like started out and Samsung devices ended up talking about like using drones for agricultural surveys. We covered everything and then it just sort of spun into an interview the next day, got the job. And I mean, honestly, the rest is kind of history. That was awesome. there for five years and then like that job. I don't think it's for everybody. Like the way it was set up was really small start up and it was very like or it was very intense, but that gave me the like launch into the career ad.

So yeah. So I mean, obviously, you know, you were working at a best buy, you know, the opportunity, I would say kind of maybe fill into your lap. Just, I mean, just kind of random looking back on it and for people that are watching a show like for example, Allison congratulations, Allison, she actually just landed the job yesterday out of boot camp. I'm so happy for you. And I messaged Allison, I'm going to get her on the show to talk about her story. But, you know, if you're not a part of a boot camp and you're not a part of a college, how, what's your advice for juniors getting started?

Yeah, look back on it. Yeah. Uh, so the first one is not really replicable, right? like I can't tell you just to go me and around best. Right. And that's what I want to dig a little bit. Right. Like not everybody can go work on a best buy and then get a job like from a conversation. Right. So I think the takeaway there that I would like give people is that it's more about like opportunity shows up wherever. Right. There's no, there's no rule in place that says you can only find a career opportunity in online dinner on Twitter or whatever. Those are great places.

They show up there, but it's everywhere. So like the takeaway there for me is more about just like networking and being open with stuff. of that. I'm curious. Yeah, exactly. And then like tangential that and come back to the like advisory job seeking general, like my current job at Butterfly network is because I connected with my recruiter at her previous job and stayed in touch. And then he posted about her in on LinkedIn and followed up and like had prior experience. So like even outside of people walking into best by keeping those contacts and just staying in touch people good. So the actual advice would take away, right?

Like, for lower level people, I think it's I strongly advocate for picking a framework or language, doubling down on it, getting your foot in the door somewhere, finding that first job, and then reaching for mentors. I think that especially with the current market and the proliferation of no code solutions or low code solutions. I think that junior market's getting harder. So really hammering down and picking something that you gravitate towards and using that to get in the door and building out. I love that. And then additionally, open source projects. I think open source contributions are a thing that are probably maybe overlooked a bit too much.

So I'm glad you brought this up. I don't talk about this enough. So can you talk about like where where developers go to find open source projects? Yeah, so I mean this is gonna Maybe sound a bit too simple, but just go to GitHub right like GitHub is Very incentivized to encourage people working on open source projects and a lot of people don't really realize like what all is open source And what that means so if I can real quick just like lace and ground Yeah, so open source projects and open source can be applied to anything not just software It's there's open source hardware initiatives as well.

Okay Okay. Open source just means that like the content for that, the source code, the stuff that backs it is not behind any kind of barrier or gateway. Anybody can access it, anybody can encourage you to copy it. License is very, so like sometimes like GPT means you have to like copy, you have to use the same license, MIT, and you can do it every one. For finding them like a lot of stuff runs an open source, Python's an open source project, right? It's one of the most user languages in the world, open source project. And even outside of Python, like a lot of stuff that runs computers for most applications is open source, right?

Like when it's an operating system. For finding them, if you go to GitHub, GitHub has like search utilities for great source, like great first contributors looking for help kind of deals. If you have a specific project or framework or tool you like using, chances are it's supported by open source in some way. So you can like just dig into that and find out what it's using, you know? And would you recommend just putting that on your resume? I mean, I would. Yeah, yeah. So total transparency, especially for more junior people, like first round open source contributions are not going to be glamorous, right? They might be like verifying that a bug exists or creating recreations or whatever.

It's not going to be glory work, but it's like proving that you can work on a team that you can actually do the work and that you have the initiative to go find the work, right? Like those are, when I'm looking at a resume as an interview, you're like, that's the kind of thing to jump south. So is it that one more time? Say that one more time. What you're putting more. Oh, yeah. So putting our putting open source contributions on a resume, as an interview, I'm less focused on the content of that contribution and more that you have it because that shows that you have the initiative to go find the work that you can work with a team, like it's a collaborative project, right?

And that like you are capable of doing the thing that was done. It doesn't really matter what it was. like you you proved right I love that. So go ahead. I was gonna say for more senior people right like obviously the capability for contributions is much more broad and those things lead to pretty valuable opportunities. One of the guys I work with today was hired because butterfly uses a library he wrote and maintained. No way. Yeah exactly and so like then we hit it historically a couple of years ago, somebody ran into an issue with the project, reached out to him, he helped solve it in the framework, we made upstream contributions, and then that dialogue turned into a job for him.

That's awesome. I've heard that same story many times in many places. So I've had, I think, one or two guests on my show get jobs because of open-source contributions and networking. I think another thing too, and again, I talked about this yesterday, I went live like for 15 minutes, just me and myself and I, and I went over the opportunity section on Polywork, which I think is a fascinating thing. There is literally a marketplace on Polywork for people asking for actively asking for help on things, whether it's a fix a bug or take on a project or just come on a podcast. There's so many ways to network.

And so I'm glad you brought up GitHub to talk about the open source project because again, I'm always wanting to talk about these things. The next thing the next thing I want to ask you is, you know, I obviously talked with with a lot of junior devs, especially on the job search, and it's overwhelming. Can you talk about just some feelings that you've had as a senior engineer, going through the job search, and maybe just some encouragement to juniors that everybody feels the same? Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Real quick though, I want to highlight, thanks Steve and Chat pointed out the science technology section on Twitch.

So I think this is something that gets overlooked a lot. I used to stream on Twitch, I plan on getting back to it whenever we get that are then to the new place. But a lot of open source people stream on Twitch and it's a great place to meet other networking things. Right, a lot of like. George, George, here's a great open source project speaker headed by some Nashville folks. Yep. And then Alison brought in a good one about open to connect on, well, she's open to connect but also using the badge on LinkedIn. I love it, I love it. Yeah. So yeah, feelings around the job search as a senior, just obviously being transparent and that everybody feels it.

Yeah, yeah. So like I have interviewed at places that are like five percent startups all over like Fortune five companies, right? And the interview experience is inconsistent across like the same range of people. I feel like at best it's inconsistent. Yeah, at best. I like it's worse. It's consistent, bad. Right. I know. And this isn't like a problem that like get solved with more money or whatever. So for example, I've within just over a year ago interviewed at both Amazon and Google. And I would put those companies in sort of the same bucket, right? Google's interview experience was terrible. It was awful. I had a bad time and it took like two months to get through.

The Amazon experience was great, Right. It was expedient. The recruiter was super friendly and personable. And like, I would recommend it again. And I passed the Amazon one and didn't pass the Google one. Even at a senior level, I would say that I've proved my capability of working at this point inside this field. I get turned down for maybe 60 to 70% of the job applications I submit still. It's been a minute since I've done that. I've been pretty happy about it. But the transition away from butterfly, even then the rejection doesn't go away. And that's not symptomatic of you or your inability to do the job.

It's just there are false negatives. People not a good process. There's no objective measure to whether or not you fit to a company. Yeah, yeah, I usually tell people 75% of the time it's not even you like if there's so much Politics and red tape and just terrible interviewing steps. I want to go this Brendan I don't know if there's an official open to connect badge on LinkedIn I do know my friend Alicia Novin. I think created and open to connect that so go connect with Alicia And and I think like he can send that banner to you So, will give me some other thoughts, man.

Job seeker thoughts, just how can job seekers level up their job search experience and really separate themselves? Yeah. So, mission open source contributions is a big one. Community engagement or networking is also another big one, right? Like, even if you're not a recruiter, I think that staying connected to the community, whether that's remote or physically, right? Yeah. Is a great way to sort of up your presence. Right? There's an ancillary benefit to having a hire that is involved with community efforts. For example, right, I'm on the show with you. I work at Butterfly. It's not my job to be like a dead relations person. Sure.

I have volunteered opportunities lined up with NSS later this week. I love it. Same deal where like that's sort of inadvertent marketing for Butterfly Network. Now whether or not that was a consideration for my hire, it might not have been, but it is in some places. Those are the things we've looked at. Additional tips for standing out. This is maybe where one of these hot takes is going to show up. I will preface this with that I, this is an opinion. It evolves. It's my own. I think that people historically have been too reductive or critical of the interview process. I've heard a lot of times, like interviews should be easier, non-technical.

I've like talked to and met people who have just walked out of an interview for having to do a whiteboard problem, right? And like, I don't think that whiteboard problems are necessarily the best answer. And I've definitely had some bad ones. Sure. Like the flip side is like a hire is a pretty big deal for some companies, especially small ones, right? For larger companies, they can afford to do contract to hire or like take the risk. But for small to mid companies, like that, that can be a big deal. Yeah. So I think it's, in most situations, better to be thorough for both people, right?

The flip side risk, if you're getting hired at some place and being miserable and then having like a two month engagement on your resume, it doesn't look great. So being like the thing there is just like, be understanding about it, you know? It's a two way thing. Well, and I think too, I talk about this, I think being gracious and being kind, like listen, us recruiters, we don't like giving bad news. Like, I mean, like we're, we hate it. And what's even worse is we're the middleman. Because hiring managers can just say, well, I'm not going to move forward. Will. Yeah. I mean, will, I mean, shit, I think I maybe had you interview for a client or two and that maybe we didn't get any feedback on, right?

I mean, it's just like it just, it is what it is. And so, but I think the thing is, is if you could be gracious and kind, especially to the hiring manager. Most hiring managers don't get their first or second option. They just don't. And so, yeah, I would, I would highly recommend to just like be nice. Yeah. And like, even if you like, it's okay to feel mad about the company, right? But like, the company's not doing an interview, there's people doing these interviews, right? And as like an interviewer, I might interview, you know, 10 people for a given position and I might like nine of them.

I can only take one though. Right. So I have to avoid like getting too sentimental or attached or about it because then at the end I have eight people I've disappointed and I feel bad about it. So it's not to say like I don't care about the people on the inside of the table. It's just that it can be like a mentally trying process as an interviewer. 100%. So talk about, talk about some tips and maybe something and obviously in your career where you've prepared yourself to go on the job search, right? I mean, I'm really big on like the mental being intentional why you want to leave.

Can you talk, can you get the brain a will over the last few positions or years when you've moved and maybe what's been some motives for you to move and just kind of the prep that you've done before you've made a jump? Yeah, this is where I'm going to show up as an outlier. I don't prep. I put very little effort into prepping for an interview. That's not what I wanted you to say. I know I'm just messing. This is why I do this. There's no standard. However, I think this is a situation where it's very much like a very it's by person. And that answers my typical state, but there are a couple situations where if I find a job that I'm really interested in, right, I'll prep.

And the reason I don't do a lot of prep otherwise is some of product of other habits. Right. I have about once every three months I update my resume. Um, even if I'm not interviewed in the region, it's kind of like, do you have like a reminder on your phone? It's like, whoa, a calendar invite. It's like, well, it's been three months time to update the whole resume. Yeah, more or less or like, it's just like a, that's great. It's been long enough now that like, I don't need to remind her anymore. And I actually know that that I set it up when I set up my new account.

But, and the reason I do that is because, and this applies to a lot of things, I think it's hard to cold recall experience, right? Like in the same way that, on a micro level, if you're working day to day and you keep hitting a pain point, I think it's better to write it down immediately on a retro board rather than waiting to bring it up later in a retro because it's harder to remember that. So I keep my resume fresh, so I don't have to think about it and additionally worst case scenario comes up, I'm not caught off guard. Sure. So my resume's already and that's like 90% of my prep work.

Which I'm gonna pause here. I truly think what Will just said, I think every engineer needs to do junior, senior, mid, halfway retired. I mean, like I think trying, your resume is this living, breathing document of your entire career. And when you get into an interview, you typically have to recite your career in some way, shape, or form. And so I think adding stuff to your resume quarterly is a great way to, and that way it's not a huge lift. So whenever Will wants to go on the job search again, he doesn't have to sit there and be like, well shit, I gotta rewrite this resume for like six hours, right?

Cause it's already updated. So I think that's great. I think I'm right. And a couple of like tips here, and these apply across all levels. First for anyone who is tuned in and not already aware, Taylor's got a great template for us and me on the site. I did not pay him to say that, thank you. Yeah, second, I mean, I've looked at it at some point in time, like stole some parts of that template, so. Yeah. Weren't it? Second, and this applies to all levels. The, so my like pro tip secret hack here is that I keep my username in a Google Sheet, right?

Yeah. And I keep it updated. And it's like, as is, nothing's highlighted, and there's like a skills section at the bottom. And I have skills broken down into like proficient, we're familiar. Okay. And then- Okay. And then- Okay. And then- So the entire resume is pretty bland and plain and white format single page. You can- I- Well, I'll fall back and forth on the double page thing, especially for more senior people, right? Like as an interview, I'm interested in knowing what you've worked on. I'm more inclined to go through multiple pages, the more experience you have. So the big thing I do is before submitting an application, regardless of how interested I am in a job, I'll go under that Google sheet, I will pick the words, the keywords that I think are relevant to that job, and I will bold them.

And then I export that as a PDF, and that's the resume submit. So. Mark. So it's the same resume, but if you're applying to a Staff engineer Python dev that needs heavy AWS. You're going through your resume and just bolding any jargon around AWS or Python. Yep, yeah, exactly. Those bugs words are like, if I'm applying the position that would be working a lot with like building out search infrastructure or like a specific full stack thing, like I'm highlighting any buzzwords or terminology, like in not long stretches, like one or two words per block. Not, not, not paragraphs. Yeah, yeah. So I might, for four jobs, I might submit the same resume, but each one of them might have a different variation on what's high, like bolded.

That's a different idea. So I've never heard this idea. So that's wonderful. You know, obviously, you know, I preach having, depending, depending on, you know, your experience, maybe have two resumes, right? So let's say you're a JavaScript engineer who's come to work on the back and the front, or you may have more of a back end resume, and then more of a front end focus resume. And then, you know, highlight different positions, but I also like this as well, because this is a little easier and a little less cumbersome. Yeah, and then like to pair with that, and again, I think that your resume should be largely personal.

I think it's good to start with the template, but I think as you develop in your career, you should make your resume more you, right? Like I don't think there's an ideal fit here. Or keep it plain and simple. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't like two column resumes. I don't like color. See? I didn't pay will to say that. That, yes, the two columns got that out of here. It's so distracting. Well, let's say I'm a job seeker and I send you a resume. And it's two columns with a bunch of colors. What does that do to you? Like mentally, what does that do? Consciously, not a lot.

right? Like I understand that people submit these things. Like I'm annoyed by it, but I don't, I don't like immediately put you in a separate stack for it. Kind of right. But I do, I'm now like less inclined to dig through your resume, especially if it's like, that's it. That's it. That's it right there. Yeah. Like it's like, especially if it's weirdly formatted. So I've seen two columns where they'll like reach across a column or like do a continuation so that to unwrap it is, do you put it side by side or do you put in like a single long line? And that's sort of mental overhead for for navigating a resume is not a lot, but if I have to look through a dozen resumes for like a position, and I've got an hour, a bandwidth that I can afford to set out from doing my full time job, then like, it's hard to justify spinning that extra time.

Correct, 100%. Yeah, that's exactly what I wanted to hear. So good. Yeah, so I don't like, I don't like two columns. I don't like a lot of colors. I want it to be simple and informational, right? I'm like highly functional over form, which is why I do the bolding, right? Like that is because as a person looking at that, if I can quickly extract like, if you have a whole paragraph block that has no bolded keywords in it and other places do, that immediately signals to me that maybe that block of experience is less relevant. Okay. And that's fun. Anyway, so I think resume should evolve over time.

I think that if you are like a front end UI UX person, there's a little room there to add color or flavor to make it look more cyclically pleasing. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not on far from that. And so my position experience is usually like two or three lines, like it's really slim, not full paragraphs. And it's mostly a recap of responsibility set. And then the skills section towards the bottom highlights the actual tools or frameworks that I've used and level of proficiency with them. And that's where a lot of like. From what I remember, I did like your resume from when we were working together.

I don't remember specifics, but I remember you having a good resume. Oh, it's definitely even changed since then. I did a book in fact, or like, when I switched to butterfly. So, guys. Yeah, Romero, if you go, I will comment after the show, but if I don't get to commenting, it's vaco.com, V-A-C-O.com, backslash tailor, and it's the free guide section. So just to, just let you know, oh, Chris, Chris already beat me to it. Thanks, Chris, I appreciate it. All right, so, Will, as we wrap up the show, Tom Flaz, when you're having fun. If I can't, there's one more piece of advice to tackle.

Yeah, well actually, so yeah, so I just got a text. Sorry, I had like zoned out for a second. Last piece of advice for you, and then I have one more question to wrap it up. Yeah, yeah, okay. So this is something I originally started out advocating for juniors and has become something I do, even still an advocate for seniors too, is a big deal. So tying into the previous statement of it's hard to call recall things. What I do is at the end of the day, I will make like just a jot down a quick note in the notebook or type it up in a document of things that I learned or worked on that day.

Like really? Just like a line. Yeah. And this is less about like an audit trio for performance things, but that's where it started out as a junior thing. So, and then at the end of the week, I'll review the like five days I've gone through and I'll coalesce that into like a slightly longer statement. I do this again at the end of a month or the beginning of a month and then at the end of the year. So what this does is it lets me sort of keep track of like my own personal journey as like grow and develop. So from a junior perspective and where they started at was this like it was an idea like a novel concept that I'd had when mentoring someone about being able to prove their growth in a junior position and when they're ready to try and push for like that next level of a mid level engineer.

It's turned into I find it to be like a pretty helpful experience for like aggregating stuff to put on my resume, keep you tracking my growth areas, and like even identifying areas that I'm not growing in. Like if I, at the end of the month, realize that even though I'm in a back end position, I like all of my work has been related to platform or front end, then hang on, I'm stacking. Yeah. So I love that. I think that's huge. I've said something like that. I say to do that for interviewing. So when you interview after you get down to interview, immediately go to a Word doc or your pen and paper and type the things out that went well.

Questions you missed. You know, I think that's wonderful. I think really, you know, you really, we have so many things going on our brains, right? So I think you can and summarize this stuff and put it down on paper, I think you're gonna be pretty good. And I love that too. I absolutely love that advice. I should not be a lot of time. It's like five minutes in a day, 10 minutes in a week, 15 minutes in a month. I love that, I love that. All right, last question to wrap it up here and again, well, thanks for coming on, buddy, I appreciate it. Obviously, so the show is Guidance Councilor 2.0 for a reason because we had Guidance Councilor as an elementary school, middle school, high school, but now we don't have them as adults.

They're called therapists now, But basically, what's your biggest piece of advice for your younger self from a career perspective, especially speaking to the college, 1.4 to non-GPA dropout? Yeah, so this is, I love this question. And this is actually gonna walk me into like one of my favorite hot takes, I think. So imposter syndrome's a real thing. I got asked by an SS not too long ago to speak about imposter syndrome in a couple of weeks. It's something that everybody at every level deals with. And I think that we as a field are doing myself as a service and propagating it. And this ties back to the concept that IT or tech fields have this meme or stigma about them that it's easy, anybody can do it.

And I do think that anybody can do it, but I think that like any other skill some people have more or less inclination towards it. It can be harder for some. And I have seen it multiple times where somebody comes into trying to switch to tech has been told it's easy, they struggle with it. And then that mental damage that that carries for like, why am I struggling with something that I've been told is easy, is heavy, and creates a huge barrier for people to get through. So it's inadvertently blocking some people out. And then also, I think that it's a partial contributor to my own personal struggles where there was a point time where I debated quitting software like a year in.

Yeah, I struggled really, really hard. Thankfully, somebody talked me into sticking with it, but it was that same thing, right? Where I thought I was subpar compared to the rest of my peers because I was struggling at the time and I had been told that what I was doing was easy. And so my retroactive advice would be like, it's not necessarily easy to start, but it does get easier and anybody can do it. It's just you gotta, the work people gotta put it in different. That's good. So I love that. That's awesome. That's awesome. All right, man. Well, thank you again for hanging out. y'all thank you again for hanging out today.

Our guidance comes with 2.0, hopefully you enjoyed it. I know I enjoyed it. Go Connect with Will. Will's really passionate about giving back and helping, which is what I admire about him. So go connect with Will. And so tomorrow Unicorn Finders will be live tomorrow with a VR company that is in the physical therapy space. So pretty fascinating. So join us tomorrow with Unicorn Finders. And then Friday, it will be my last show for two weeks before I head to Europe with my wife. And it's another amazing job seeker story as well. So Will, thank you. Yeah, thanks for having me, Taylor. Appreciate it. I was a blast and stay on real quick so I can say bye to you.

But Twitter spaces signing off. Thanks again, y'all appreciate it. Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube, Twitter, TikTok. Thank y'all, appreciate it. Y'all have a good one. Peace. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode And I am very grateful because you know why? There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes. And I myself rarely finish an entire episode. So I appreciate you so, so much for listening. Quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the app store. I want this to be discoverable to others. And the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it, please like right now, unless you're driving, then don't do it.

So thank you again. If you need to reach out to me, Taylor at Vaco.com, or at Tdastin on all social media handles, and I hope you have a fantastic day.