content and the recruiting industry w/joel lalgee from hirewell

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Hello, hello. Thanks for listening to Guidance Counselor 2.0. Listen, I want to give you a quick rundown of what this podcast is and what you're about to get into as you listen to these episodes. We had Guidance Counselors in middle school. We had Guidance Counselors in high school, but we didn't really have Guidance Counselors in college and now as professionals, we don't really have anybody to turn to to ask a quick question to learn something about the job search or to navigate your career. And so that is what I want this podcast to be for you. I want it to be a tool for you to navigate the job search and your career.

So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you need to reach me, Taylor at vaco VACO.com is how to get in touch with me old fashioned email social media at tdssentysen finally. Please rate and review this in the app store because I want this to be discoverable for others so they can navigate their careers. Hope you enjoy the episode. Joe, get the people what they want. Who are you? What do you do? We're just real fast and then we'll dive in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I am a, well, I've been in a recruitment agency world now for about eight years. So, you know, I always just say coming up to 10 years.

But I started out my agency career than RPO. So an RPO for those of you don't know is almost like an hourly recruitment service. So we would, it wasn't like the traditional way that most people fall into agency recruitment, like working contingency recruiting, I was working like an hourly RPO. So that was great. I spent five years doing that. And then at the beginning of COVID, I decided to make a switch into more of the traditional recruitment agency world. So I went to a contingency recruitment firm here locally, and it was terrible, super toxic, and I won't get into that. I won't name names. But that led me to actually starting up my own company.

Now, while while I was working at that agency, I've I've been building up my following on LinkedIn, started getting more inbound, people asking me like, how can I do what you do essentially on LinkedIn? So that prompted me to start my own business. My business was essentially helping recruitment agencies with their content on LinkedIn. And I did that for about three months and then ended up working with a, or connecting up with a company in the UK that was looking to basically branch out into the US. And they had a coaching course for recruiters on building personal brands. So I spent most of last year actually coaching recruiters across the globe at recruitment agencies on like the basics of how you can do what you do so well and what I do decently, but like building a brand online and essentially scaling conversations that you have one-on-one with candidates, with clients, putting that online and getting base time with both, you know, with basically limited effort.

So spent a year doing that. And then I had my son, so I had my second child, and I was like, man, I need something a little bit more stable in the US. So I hooked up with a company called Hyrulel, shout out to the Hyrulel Squad. And I spent about a year there, the first year there, just like recruiting recruiters, made a lot of sense. That's basically my audience on LinkedIn. And now I'm more of like an evangelist, like business specialist, bringing in business, spreading the high-low brand and then just producing content so I got a podcast too. So that's it. I love it.

I love it. Yeah, and I'm super excited again to have Joel Ralph, got my team. Joel's the goat. Absolutely, Trey. It's good to see you, Chris. Another Chris, Dev. It's great to see you as well. I'll be speaking at University of Cincinnati. Dev got me hooked up with that. So I'll be at my minimum Dev conference in two weeks. I'll be speaking at University of Cincinnati. So if you're in the Cincinnati area and you are in kind of high school college area, shoot me DM and I'll send you the details. Mahabas, Grace to you and Ricardo as well. All right. So Joel, I want to get into content, right?

And people are probably going to show up today and like, Jesus, another content talk. But I think it's so important, especially in the staffing industry. And so I wanted to talk and just kind of wrap on your thoughts on why recruiting companies need to have a Joel or a tailor at the helm moving forward. Then, easy. It's how people connect nowadays. So when I look at like traditional recruitment agencies, the way that they build, most of them are driven on an outbound one-to-one activity. So outbound emails, maybe they have sequences if they're getting fancy, but outbound email, cold calling, 60 calls, 90 calls a day.

Now, I'm not saying you should necessarily even stop doing cold calls. I think Coca-Cola's work, just like the male ads work, that's why people still do it, right? But I think if you look at particularly candidates that maybe in their mid 20s to mid 30s, obviously making a huge generalization, what I found is that people love to connect through stuff like this, like content, whether it's on TikTok, LinkedIn, through a podcast. So I think really if you're not doing this, number one, you're just behind the times. But number two, I think you have to understand like this relationship between time and then what you actually get out of it.

So what I mean by that is like, as a recruitment agency, you wanna get in front of your clients, you wanna get in front of candidates more and more, right? That's why we're on the call. It's why phone time is such a big deal. It's why face time is such a big deal. But if you can get that time through content and you can put in five minutes and suddenly scale yourself to three or four hours FaceTime. It just makes sense. Yep. Yeah, absolutely. I think, I think too, from just putting stuff out on the internet, it immediately endears you. Like, it just does. Like FaceTime goes such a long way.

But I want to go back. I always like people's origin story, especially because of content, right? So like mine was like, COVID hit. conferences, I got really tired of like the emails, the cold emails, the cold DMs, I want to do something different. What is your origin story? Like, why did you go, you know what, I'm gonna double down on LinkedIn. Like, why? Yeah, I think it probably was like September, I don't know, 2019. So like actually six months before COVID. So I definitely, I wasn't like, kind of with this wave of new people that joined doing content during COVID. But basically, I was I was just bored in my job, right?

Like I was in this recruitment agency. I thought, you know, I'm doing all this one-to-one interaction. I kept seeing people on LinkedIn that were saying, hey, if you produce content, if you put yourself out there, you can start to get inbound. But then there was this element of, I just actually enjoy this. So originally it was like, I don't want to just do cold email and cold outbound. I want people to know who I am. And then really, really quickly, like within a week, I was like, I just really enjoy writing. So it started off with a lot of copy and a lot of video.

And I was like, I just enjoy this. I really enjoyed coming up with ideas and sharing ideas online. And then it really just went from there. I started seeing inbound. I started seeing more connection requests. I started hearing people when I go out, say, when I go to a vent, it'd be like, oh, I've seen your content, which just reinforced in my mind, okay, people are seeing this. And then honestly, it just really took off from there. and I started going viral on LinkedIn. I started understanding like really what people want from content, which isn't always necessarily just kind of boring white pages, but they wanna be entertained.

Yes. And then pretty quickly found out about TikTok as well. So I doubled down on TikTok maybe 2020, beginning of 2020. Can it be for a lot of people really where seeing it is a legitimate way? Yeah. But with TikTok, I got burned out and I took a break of about 18 months and it isn't really only until like two or three weeks ago that I started getting active on there. And now, again, that's another platform which people think it's kids dancing or they think that it's just, you know, kind of music or whatever they think it is. But there's just so many people that spend time on there.

And I've probably made three or four connections this week alone from candidates and potential business. So it just makes sense, right? I have so many questions I wanna ask you. So the first question I wanna ask is, How do you think a recruiting firm can operationalize a guy like me or you? Because, because I think the big thing that, that I'm seeing, especially talking to other recruiters is, hey, listen, like my recruiting company doesn't know how to work with me. You know, I'm putting out all this content. Um, I mean, I don't know if Hyrule is, is, you know, if Hyrule is doing something cool or even if it's not even Hyrule, just your thoughts on how do you think a company, a recruiting company can utilize a tailor or a Joel.

Hey, number one incentivize people to do it. So Hyrule pays me to put out content. Crazy idea, right? They pay me for my time that I spend putting out content. But we do that across the board. So we have ambassadors at the company that produce content and we track it and we pay people. So I think paying people and incentivizing them is number one. And then number two, like they support and they encourage things. So we have an internal chat that people can get involved in. We have content meetings where we discuss content. And I think that that just creates an excitement and a buzz around content.

So I think it's from the top, like we have a leader at our company, James Hornick, huge shout out to him, number three most sarcastic commenter on LinkedIn, but he's behind it, right? So he supports this. So I think you need leadership to support it. And then on the back end, like for example, on my podcast, I have an editor that can put together the short clips. I have somebody that can push that content. So again, it's supporting that, it's encouraging it. I think what tends to happen is whenever people start producing content, it's kind of a scary place for companies because they don't really know what to expect.

It's unpredictable. It's hard to track. It's hard to track too. It's a super hard to track. And I think that's the piece that we're still figuring out in terms of it's clear when we talk to new employees, for example, a lot of them saw my content or they saw James' content And that's why they reached out to Hyrule and our internal recruiter. In fact, one of the things they say is once we started interacting with one of you, it's like suddenly our whole feed is Hyrule. So I think we know that it's working, but we're trying to figure out like, how can we track that?

So we thought of like, you know, landing pages, for example, on profiles. So if they click on the landing page and it tracks and we can go, Hey, clearly, it came through this person. So we're still figuring it out, but I think that first step, leadership at the top, stop being afraid, stop worrying, you hired people for a reason, let them be themselves, let them build their personal brand, and incentivize it. Absolutely. I think too, I think, so my buddy Brandon Arvey, who helps manage my content, he and I've had this conversation and content creation has always said, it's like giving somebody a ball and saying, go play.

And they're like, what sport? You're like, I don't know, just make it up. Right? And I think we're all trying to do our best. And I think for me is I look at impressions. And just because I think that's purely top of the funnel, right? I mean, if we're talking about marketing stuff, eyeballs are increasing on the content you are putting out. You are going to be more successful. You know, I just closed down the TikTok because Jordan Mendoza was like, there's a bunch of echoes. So I just want to do something about that. I don't want to do crap content. No, you're fine. So, all right, the next question I wanna ask you though is why do you think it's so hard for recruiters to get started with content?

I have my thoughts on this, but I'm interested to hear your thoughts. Look, I think it's hard for anybody to get started in content, because usually it's just overcomplicated, but I think there's another area of recruiting and in a recruitment world that seems to get confused with this whole idea of personal branding, and that's employer branding, right? So like employer branding is basically like, they've dubbed it as recruitment marketing, but I honestly think that recruitment marketing is recruiters building a personal brand. So I think that that limits people right away. And then it's like anything else. It's imposted to syndrome. It's like I'm not creative enough.

There's these ideas and these blocks that people put in their mind. And so I think a lot of it is just a mindset. And then I also think that like a lot of people who do build personal brands, like big personal brands, They build it in a way that seems like it's really hard to get to that point. So what I mean by that is you see somebody's content and the video's really crisp or they're really good at writing. And so in your mind, you're like, oh, I can never be like that. But what you're seeing is probably years of perfecting writing or perfecting video, whatever it is, you're also seeing money invested in a production.

So it creates this illusion. You have to be like that. Whereas if you actually look back to where most of these people started, they started from a similar place where the production was low. Now, if you look at someone like me, my production is always low. And guess what? It's always going to stay like that because I don't care about production. I care about the message. And I'm just, I'm giving me meat. Now maybe one day I'll up the production. But I think like those things hold people back. And then what happens is they go, well, I need to spend $5,000 on a new setup.

And then they spend the $5,000, they get set up, and then they start producing content and the engagement is low. And I'm just telling you right now, I've got, you know, thousand followers on Twitter, $13,000 on TikTok, $150,000 on LinkedIn. It did not start from that place. Twitter, I think it took me like a year and a half to get to a thousand followers. But I love that. We had 60,000 followers on LinkedIn and it took me a year and a half to get to a thousand followers. But it was like once you've got past that journey once, then you're not afraid to do it.

So I guess it's just like, everyone always says like the first 100,000 that you save, right? It's the hardest. You know, the first million you make is the hardest. And it's like we understand that financially, but it's the exact same thing with content. But I think if you're gonna go in there and think, oh man, like within three weeks, I'm gonna have built this personal brand. No. I mean, so, and I've told a lot of people that I would put your head down for a year before anything really starts to pop off. and just try to give away all of your tips for a year and then see what happens.

You know, Josh puts in right here and the data analyst coming in, I'm seeing professionals doing the same as what Joel and you are doing Taylor and it's your director of their careers is really starting to take off. So I want to tie this back into job seekers too. And I talk about this all the time, as you know, about job seekers putting themselves out online. I mean, this is not a coincidence. Like this is not a coincidence. So Joel, I didn't know if he had any thoughts on this. Yeah, I think across the board, you know, again, whether you're a recruiter or whether you're a data scientist, like there's gonna be younger people that look up to you.

Younger people are what drives social media typically, you know, especially on a platform like TikTok, for example, like it's obviously mostly younger people, but they're looking for information. They're looking for people who are further ahead of them. Like they want mentorship. So I think if you're creating that type of content that's valuable, you're gonna get people that wanna learn from you, that's gonna build a community. But then on the top side of that too, most brands, like there are so many brands that just have terrible social media presence. So if they see you as somebody that knows what they're doing with that, you're automatically valuable.

Plus on top of that, they hire somebody that has a social media presence. It's just free marketing for that brand. Like, look at, like my thing here, it says Joe Laogee Hyrule. So everybody knows I'm at Hyrule. like that's just free publicity. You know, that's free advertising for them. So that's why it works. And then on top of that, it builds credibility. And I think this is a part two that people don't get, like familiarity builds credibility and it builds trust. So true. And when you're interviewing for people or whether you're looking for new talent, if you have a hundred applicants and you recognize one of those names, you're probably gonna gravitate towards that person.

Now that's the back end of it, you actually have to be credible with what you're talking about. You have to know how to do something. But to be honest with you, there's a lot of people that can fake that stuff too. And like, actually don't know what they're talking about, which is kind of set. But if you know what you're talking about and then you build a personal brand, you know, and again, it's like, what is a personal brand? Is it a million followers? Is it two million? Is it 5,000? It's in the internet. It's exactly. And that's a guy I'm connected with right now.

He's he this is on TikTok like we I don't know how we got connected up But he's verified over there and he's got like 1.3 million followers and he's like dude. I'm like broke I can't monetize my Following but it's because he's talking about all this random stuff and it kind of just happened randomly So the engagement is out of there and I think to your point building that engagement building that community being predictable talking about things That's the best way to do it whether it's 2,000 people or a million I'd rather have 2000 CEOs and founders engaged with my brand that know who I am than a million people who aren't buyers.

Right? So don't be fooled by following in and those types of things as well. Yeah, 100%. So Sabrina comes in and goes, you know, I needed this. I'm struggling so bad to get out there for my business and to find a dev job. It's a long journey, but I'm trying to be hopeful. Again, I mean, Sabrina, I'll tell you this. You know, there's, there's three kind of pillars I talk about the job search, right? There's leveraging recruiters, agency recruiters. leveraging LinkedIn and putting out content. And then there's obviously making sure your resume is posted on the indies, the DICE's career builders, et cetera, et cetera.

And so, you know, again, Sabrina, I encourage you to continue to put yourself out there because the more junior devs, I know a ton of junior devs that have been fearless and have just posted on LinkedIn about, I bomb the interview because of X, so I'm gonna get better or I'm learning about React Query and I'm trying to learn, you know, and post about it, they create a community. So Sabrina, I encourage you to keep posting and build that community. Joel, I wanna go back to the recruiting industry. I think recruiters are taught the same thing all the time. Go to dice, go to career builder, go to Indeed.

And I just feel like that really, really gets the industry in a rut. And I think the industry is in a rut. I think the recruiting industry is stuck in the old ways. Now, now my question to you is, Does everybody need to be putting out content? I thought about this today, actually. I was going to make a video about it. And honestly, there are some people who are better at content than others, right? And it's the same idea. Does everybody need to be a public speaker? No. I think science to know whether or not you're going to do well with content is you actually enjoy it.

I think if you don't enjoy it, then don't force yourself into doing it. But at the same time, there's different types of content. Twitter for example, like comments can do really really well. Like comments same on LinkedIn. Even liking I've found so many people on Twitter because people in my community like to post and it like pushes to your feed. Well, and exactly it's like I think that's one of the things that you know people who follow me on LinkedIn like I leave snarky comments and I'm like kind of you know like I have fun with stuff or like oh you know I promote things so like comments, liking, sharing things I think we can all do that.

and you know maybe you get to a point where you enjoy it but I think you know going back to your point with like the recruiting industry kind of being behind I think here's a challenge no undoubtedly some of the biggest billers I know don't have a presence on social media. Yeah same like literally there's there's one recruiter I know in in Vaco and he's always at the top and if I say if I say the office it'll give it away but literally the dude like doesn't do anything social he's probably one of the quietest guys I know and he's just a machine. And that's a thing.

It's like, you don't need social media to be a great producer. But what I'll say is, if you have the ability to just reach more people, it's never going to hurt. So you got a million dollar bill, and suddenly they start producing content and they know what they're doing, that could turn into 2 million, sorry, did I say 2 million, right? So it's like, I think, but that's part of it, right? Like you're always going to have people who are going to do well without it. But to me, like the best example, like the, the guy that you should, if you're in recruiting, the guy that you should know about is Joe Mullings.

I mean, I don't know if you've seen his content, but Joe Mullings, I mean, it's like next level. He's got a studio, you know, I've had him on my podcast. Oh, is that the guy at Dallas that like does those like morning shows and stuff? Like in it's like he's no, so, so he's out of, I think he's out of Florida. And he is like, he's pretty high up in like MRI network, but Joe, his contacts next level, right? And he's in like a med device and he's still a dealer. He's like billing over a million a year, owns an agency that's doing 18 to 20 million.

They've, that contacts next level, okay? But one thing that when I interviewed him, he said, he said there's something to the effects and I'm gonna butcher it, but it was basically like, you know, like recruiters, like digital won't, media won't place a recruiter, but recruiters that use media will replace those that don't. And it's true. And it's like, yes, those outbound things are working, but it gets less and less and less effective. And obviously, too, the unique thing with recruiting is it's all about your network and who you know. But if in 20 years, people are getting to know people online, like you're going to have to figure out how to connect with people online.

It's just, it's a lot. Yeah, and I think this may be a hot take because I'm trying to put myself in someone's shoes, who's like a top biller, unless at the end of the day, recruiters have such an important job because we help people's livelihoods and level up their careers and help provide for their families. So I think recruiting industry, I say outside of the medical industry, like heart surgeons, brain surgeons, like cancer research, like we do, we are the recruiters are actually doing the Lord's work. I mean, we are really, you know, getting people paid, helping their families, but I do think in a way that if you are passionate about recruiting long-term, building community, building a network, being a voice for the long game, I think that's where content comes in.

Like I think, like here's the deal, I can stop putting our content tomorrow, I could go back to normal recruiting and I could probably make more money than in my position at the moment. But I made that decision because I wanted to build a team, which I'm building a team. And I wanted to leave a lasting legacy instead of just being heads down in the national market, just recruiting. Now, there's nothing wrong with people who wanna be heads down, and that's all they wanna do. But for me, in my decision, I wanted to leave more of a long lasting legacy, and that's where content came in.

Yeah, 100%. And I think too, like, the important thing to remember too with content is we're even just starting on our journey. Like, how long have you been doing it for two years? literally about I think I was six months later than you. Yeah. So two, two years, I've been doing it for three years, but my mindset isn't like, oh, I'm going to get to this place. It's like, it's just part of what I do. And reality is like audience and those types of things are valuable. And I know we talked a lot about agency, but I think the other thing to think about is like, if you're an internal recruiter, build your personal brand.

Like there are some great examples on LinkedIn right now of like recruiters of internal that are producing content and they're growing super fast and when I get them on my show and when I have conversations with them, pretty much like 90% of candidates so they reach out to it like yeah I'm part of the company because of you because I think like agency we get it right like hey if you have your name out there I make commissions and all this type of stuff but internal recruiters that becomes really valuable because if you're an internal recruiter you build up a personal brand and you've got 100,000 followers, let's say, you leave that internal recruiting gig, you bring that following with you, you then become valuable to whatever company you go to because they look at it and go, wow, like this person literally can just do a post about a job opening and they get 50,000 views.

If you've tried LinkedIn job postings, they suck and they don't produce anything except, you know, maybe a bunch of applicants that aren't qualified. Now, you probably still get a bunch of applicants that aren't qualifying if you do the post. But the thing is, is like you just, you get more people who are qualified, people know you, it's great for the employer brand as a whole, and you become this like advocate. And I think like, to be honest with you, like forget agency, I think internal recruiting, they'll have a role just like that we're seeing in like marketing with like, you know, evangelist positions and this whole idea of demand generation, you just see that same thing in recruiting.

Well, you'll have like, you know, instead of a lead recruiter, you'll just have like, you know, a recruiting evangelist who like literally all they're doing is producing content that they probably enjoy and And they're just bundling people through to the company And I think that like if you're an internal recruiting team Figure it out and and I think again This is separate from employer branding which it would fall under marketing But it's just like sales people who build big personal brands that separate from the company marketing, right? But so So, God, this is another conversation. I have a 10 o'clock. I can be a little bit late for it, but I think that's huge.

Like I think, and I'll give props to Vaco, because Vaco has supported me 100% let me be my voice, but I think you gotta let your creators and your company create on their own without the hindrance of any company branding guidelines, because I think there's a time and place for both. 100%. There is, but that's what I'm saying is like, just like you have your marketing team, that thinks about the branding, thinks about the voice in the marketplace to go to market strategy or whatever. That's a function, but personal branding, it's a different thing. But what happens is people lump them together because they're like, oh, social media content, that's marketing.

And it's like, it's different. It's different and it's similar, right? Because it's like, there's elements of it which will be like employer branding, but then it's elements which are personal branding. And I think you have to just make the differentiation and understand that. Otherwise, like you start getting really hung up and you start trying to like, well, let's get 10 brand ambassadors and we'll give them the content and that'll work. No, that won't work because the personal brand is different to what the company's saying. And if you think about it, one of the things that we're seeing is people want companies that are just relatable.

People want to work for companies that they relate with. That's where the personal brand comes in. And I think that that's where employer branding, these career videos that are just like so boring, so staged and produced, that's not as powerful as like me just talking about Hyrule, like every single person that I talk to that was new at Hyrule, not every single person, but a large bunch of them were like, dude, you posted about the work-life balance. Now I'm here, it's exactly what you said. Dude, you posted about this, you posted about this. And they're like, oh, and it's the best part about it was I don't have to lie.

I'm not like, oh my God, like- Yeah, it's like Hyrule is not feeding you lines out of the table. No, and I'll be like, yeah, we hate micromanagement and pointless KPIs. And then people get in the company and they're like, yeah, it's exactly what you said. And I'm like, yeah. I know, it's amazing, isn't it? Dan, it's good to see you, buddy. Yeah. So, Kailin, so this is a great question. And we're gonna wrap here because I do have a 10. So I'd love to hear the view of starting into personal brain at the beginning of recruiting with a tech background. Personally, I wish I started, I wish I started it from the get-go.

Yeah. But so actually Dan, it's not Dan's quote, but Dan's favorite thing to say is, when's the best time to play in a tree 20 years ago? When's the second best time to play in a tree now? Yeah. Right? And so I think that's the same thing, Joel. Yeah, and I think like, look, people love journeys, they love stories, right? So like, you don't produce content from like a place that you're not at, like nobody buys into that. So if you're just starting, like, think about it. Like talk about the conversations that you're having. And then that's the thing is you're having one-to-one conversation, do you hear things that people aren't going to hear?

Like hiring managers aren't having these conversations. So post about that, post about the challenges, post about your story. Like post for other junior recruiters, right? Like they care about that stuff. So like if I was just starting out like, I don't know, go to TikTok and make like, can I have like you have like daily block, you know, like make something like that. Like, you know, day one and recruiting. Here's what I learned. And like that type of content over time it compounds. And then as you learn, as you connect, people will connect to that content, you build the following. So I think like, you know, maybe, if I was, if my advice on LinkedIn, maybe wouldn't be just going to video, but like learning how to write first, but like something like TikTok, that it's a video platform.

So just practice on there. And the important thing to remember is like, I think people think that like when they post content, it's only it's just gonna go viral. So maybe it will randomly, But like, it doesn't usually do that. Usually you just get five or 10 likes. And so then you're connecting with people on the phone, you connect with them, I'm linked in. And then you post about yourself, right? You post about what are you doing, what are you learning? And then they just get to know you. And then a six months later you follow up with them, hey man, how's it going? Like how's the job going?

And it's like, oh, I love your content. So it's like don't, don't over complicate it. You don't need to be a thought leader. Yeah. You know, you get to that point. But like, I think again, try to be a thought leader when you're not a thought leader is never a good idea. Go look at my content. I post like memes and jokes about recruitment. Why? Because you all relate to it. You know? It's really, really good. Well, maybe Dan doesn't relate to it. He never has anybody else to him. Yeah. All right. So Joel, wrap it up here. Last question I'll always ask guests. Since this is guidance counselor 2.0, we had guidance counselors in high school, middle school.

But now when we need them the most, we don't really have them. What would be your biggest piece of career advice to your younger self? Man, I think like just be patient and like put in the work. Like I'm definitely somebody who like I rush in and like I want to get results right away. And I think like don't compare yourself to people, everybody's got a different journey and you know, just put in the work. You know, I think again like today and nowadays it's like everybody wants the hack, everybody wants to fast. you know the fast results and that's how I was in recruitment like I just wanted results right away it's how I am in sales I want result right away but things take time so just trust that and know that and produce content I love it I love it well y'all thank you again for hanging out Joel I'm gonna bounce it was great seeing you buddy thank you for hanging out with me but y'all go connect with Joel he is a wealth of knowledge and really really fucking funny on the internet so I appreciate you were telling, y'all have a great rest of your Wednesday.

We'll see you all tomorrow. Who's this? Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode and I am very grateful because you know why? There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes and I myself rarely finish an entire episode. So I appreciate you so so much for listening. Quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the App Store. I want this to be discoverable to others and the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it. Please, like right now. Unless you're driving, then don't do it. So thank you again. If you need to reach out to me, Taylor at Vaco.com or at T.

Dastin on all social media handles. And I hope you have a fantastic day.