chatting with a vp of engineering on offers

full transcript

auto-generated from the audio, so expect a few typos. the audio is the source of truth.

If you've gained for two of the guidance accounts for 2.0, I appreciate it. And before we get started and talking to Jack, I want to give some shoutouts. First off, if you are a hiring manager and you're watching this, Jack Evans Care already uses us. So Jack does not have to use us or do this, take me up on this. But if you're a hiring manager and you hate the recruiting vendors that you partner with and want to learn more about how we do things at VACO, please DM me. Please message me. One of my goals I set for myself on 2021 is to basically work with new clients across the country because of this live show.

So again, even if you want to audit your recruiting process, I will do that for free. I will not try to sell you because I think hiring is flawed and hiring is broken within every single organization to a certain point. And I'm wanting to get better with that with you. So DM me with that. Shout out to my team. That's behind me. Alex Poohler, who's done all these cool graphics. Who's doing my email newsletter, who's doing everything like that. So if you need help from a design perspective, email me. Summer LettingTintale. That's in dot com is going to be legit. It's going to have networking tips and tricks.

We are very close to launching one dot O. So Summer is heading that up. And then Drew Skeleton, all my video editing as well as Brandon Arvey for all my social media kind of content strategy moving forward with Brandon 78 and Lexington Kentucky. So enough of me running my dang mouth. Jack, thanks for joining me, big dog. I appreciate it. Jack, I'm not going to introduce you. I want you to introduce yourself who you are or where you work. What do you do? Give the listeners the viewers obviously some background. Absolutely. So I'm the vice president of engineering at a national startup called evidence care.

We got a relatively small engineering team. We're fluctuating between five and ten people, but certainly looking to grow that over the coming months. And let's see here, really my background and perspective is hiring man here comes from that small to medium enterprise space. So to put some context around the advice and perspective that I'll offer today, it's coming from the position of companies that have a lot of contextual freedom and how they handle their hiring process. We don't report to necessarily ahead of HR. We don't have, we don't treat people like checkboxes. So we have a lot of freedom to discretion in how we designed our hiring process.

And I'm just going to speak to how hiring managers at small medium enterprise space. Yeah, absolutely. So also a few people trickling in Cathy again morning is good to see a Ben Ben Blatt burn it's up play. That's a big dog. So all right. So Jack. So Jack messaged me. This is what I like the live show because it increases communication. It starts dialogue. I've been educated so much because I may have said something wrong. Right? Say things a lot wrong. Yes, my wife that. So all that being said, Ben Blatt burn goes Jack, like so you're still using your Peloton every day. I wish I had a Peloton.

And so all that that Ben just just dragging us through the mud on this live show. So so basically so Jack messaged me last week or the week before I think it was last week when I had to show around counter offers. Right. And so Jack messaged me a lot of good things about hey, this is what people should do. This is what people should bring to the table. So Jack, let me ask you this, man, as a hiring manager, the first person I want to ask you is do you like when it candidate negotiates with you? So when you give the candidate offer, do you like it?

Are you okay with if a candidate comes back to you with saying, hey, actually I would like this or what about this or what about that? So what are your initial thoughts on just the back and forth? Well, for a small company size, negotiations are actually vital to our process of collecting information on where the market stands on different positions and for different role sets. And so without that negotiation process, come out candidates being actively involved in putting out there what they want and what they are sort of expecting and what they're seeing on the market, it's really hard for us to say with definitive, with any sense of definitively the effectiveness that this is what this role is worth.

And when we're working at such a small team, every individual brings a different set of capabilities and a different additions to our team that you really, there's not a X senior engineer, senior reactant, junior is worth X dollars. I mean, that's just not how we think. Yeah, and that's smart again. Right. I love having people on with at companies who get it because I think it's a recruiter. It's so hard when I submit people for a job. It's like, what's your salary range? And then it's like, all right, but like I've had, I mean, listen, man, we've underpriced people. Right. So the thing that I'm not technical, right?

I have two consultants working me right now that the manager goes, y'all underpriced these guys. We're like, great. Right. Stalers, just such a, such a weird thing. And so let me ask you this. So what are some key things or some key strategies you guys have? I mean, so let's say a candidate comes back with, you know, 10, 15 grand more. I mean, do, is that something that you're open to seeing? Do you guys try to as an organization? Maybe say, hey, we can't do this, but we can do this instead. And what's kind of your philosophy around that? And then also too, do y'all post job bands or salary bands with your job postings too?

So I just do a lot of action. So I want to hear your thoughts on all that. So my number one priority as engineering manager is to maintain the culture of our team, right? And we have, we treat everybody in an equitable manner, right? Everybody, at least small startups is uniquely contributing to the team, but they're, you know, equal in the fact that they're all, you know, doing those extra mile activities and they're all bringing something that's really, you're replaceable. And so when we have candidates come in and they're asking for significantly higher than, you know, what we would expect for that role based off of the, you know, the team members that we already have on our team, that's a signal to us that, you know, not necessarily that that person is being, you know, unreasonable, that we might actually need to adjust our compensation across our, our role team because- So good though.

That's so good. Is to make sure that our team stays together because that's, you know, the real killer startups is when you start having one, two, three people leave. I mean, that's, that's a definite. I mean, your, your product process holds, I mean, as any engineering manager knows, it takes three, four, five, six months to get somebody productive when you're bringing them on for the first time. And you know, if we're able to provide some, you know, if we're able to provide engineers platform where they love working here, they feel like they're fairly compensated and they want to be with us for two, three years.

I mean, that's the golden ticket for success. So again, my number one goal is always to make sure that our team feels like they're valued. And if somebody comes in with, with, you know, information, a data point that suggests that we're not valuing correctly, that's how I start thinking about it. Not that the candidate is being unreasonable of that, if that makes sense. That's so good. And, you know, and for, I have a lot of way, for those of you who are watching, if you have any questions for Jack, from a salary negotiation perspective for tips and tricks, please comment at me. Um, you know, again, I definitely want to use this as a, as, as a platform to help individuals learn things and to increase their community.

So also connect with Jack as well. And Jack's one of the good ones, right? His company is one of the good ones. And the reason why I say that is because what Jack just said is huge is that he deploys empathy when it comes to the candidate, right? I work with so many hiring managers that when it, when there's a candidate negotiations, like, ah, forget it, we're done. That's it, right? And, and, and what Jack just said is so, so big and so huge when he's like, you know what, maybe it's on us, right? Maybe it's on us. Maybe we've made the mistake. And again, I think the job seekers who deploy empathy on the job search, right?

Hey, Jack, thank you for taking your time. Even though I got rejected, I appreciate you a ton and all you do, I will tell you Jack will probably remember that response better than, you know, other responses, right? But then also the flip side, right? A reason why I wanted Jack on this live show is what he just said, where evidence care and his organization, you know what, maybe this is on us and that's so, so important. And so, uh, J.R.T. says, is it best to give a range of salary or just exact amount? So let's say, Jack, let me ask you this. If a candidate is submitting their salary to you through, through their own, let's just take recruiters out of it, right?

Um, what, what would you like to see? Do you want exact amount? Do you like a range? What, what do you prefer? So from a candidate perspective, you know, my preference is that you, you know, put out a number, you know, as a first, as a first step, you know, a range is, is kind of like a, you know, a timid first step because then it really puts the, you know, the first step back onto my shoulders. Now that being said, I'm happy to, you know, to throw out a number at first, but really, um, you know, the candidate knows themselves and where they fit in the market better than, than I possibly could.

And so it makes most sense from, from my perspective for them to know, you know, have an idea of what they're worth or what they'd like to be, you know, valued at, uh, rather than me, you know, just kind of picking a number or out of half for them. I love that. Yeah. I love that so much. And do you know what I'm going to, I'm going to say this to, to your question, but also just in general. And I kind of went off on this the other day on the live show like, I'm tired of job seekers not being responsible in their search, right?

I'm sick and tired of job seekers and especially this was bad pre COVID, right? Cause you have developers and engineers just test the water and not do, not do any research and all that. But at the end of the day, like they didn't do their homework, right? So they're just throwing out arbitrary numbers. I think for me, if you're a job seeker, you need to know if I ask you right now, hey, how much of your monthly benefits or how much you pay out of pocket for benefits or how, you know, what's your bonus look like or what is your 401k, you need to know these things on the front end, right?

I see so many times in negotiation on the back end where we submit, I submit a candidate to Jack at this salary. And then to get to the negotiation process, the candidate goes, well, I realized my benefits are actually pretty good. I'm like, well, damn. Well, damn. Why, why did you tell me this first? So again, I appreciate, I liked that about Jack. Give a number. Know your specifics, right? Hey, listen, I met 130 K with a 4% match with a $600 a month. But if you send all that to Jack, I will tell you Jack will be incredibly impressed, right, Jack? Absolutely. I mean, just from the, from the get go knowing that my candidates know what they want and what they're looking for, I mean, that's a strong signal that they're going to know.

We're not just going to have a, you know, a great interview recruitment process, but that candidate would be a value member of the team because, you know, they come to things like this prepared important discussions and, you know, have their, have their thoughts together in an order and that it's a great signal even beyond just the negotiation process. Yeah, absolutely. There's, I'm bringing up Jack. I don't know if you're a college football fan. I think it's Indiana, right? Yeah. Yeah. So Indiana, Indiana had good, you know, decent football season. They're much better than South Carolina, but, but so South Carolina, Game Cox, I went to USC.

We are going through a coaching search, right? Or we have gone through a coach just we're hiring staff and there's a lot of talk about culture, culture, culture. And I use South Carolina a lot because I'm one thing in quarantine. I've become obsessed with the South Carolina football and recruiting and all that. Well, they're hiring new people and our strength and conditioning coach going to what you're probably saying Taylor, please get back on task. What Jack just said happened with our strength and conditioning coach, our strength and conditioning coach sent a 40 page document that he researched about the University of South Carolina and their weaknesses in the past few years with football and sent it to our head coach before he even sent the contract and got the offer, right?

The, this guy looped day. He had everything aligned. He was ready to go. He already was in the car driving down from West Virginia because he said to our coach, he goes coach, I want to be in town when you give me the job. So I can start immediately not being West Virginia in traveling to South Carolina. And so again, going back to what we just said, it's having your ducks in a row, being organized, being enthusiastic, but being very detailed oriented. Jack, I don't know if you have any thoughts on that. Well, I think you said it all. I mean, those are all signals, those are all signals that help me decide whether that can, it's going to be a right fit for our team.

But then it's also that level of preparation and focus in your recruitment or job search process. That's going to be the best result. So it's good for everybody. Yeah, absolutely. So, so a few more comments. DRT, you really don't need to rub me rub dirt in the face. Yes, USC has been falling off. Ben, Ben, our friend, Ben, if equities involved, ask what the company's latest valuation was and how much of the cap table is ear more for employee options. I don't know half the words in that sentence, but yes, whatever Ben just said, do that. Do that. But again, right. Ben knows things. Right.

That is a very good question to ask. And so again, that does a very prepared question to ask. So Ben, thank you for that. I appreciate that. I can agree with that. Great point, especially at smaller companies that, you know, it's not just the salary that's on the table. It's really the whole compensation package. And there's a lot of flexibility to do everything from equity options to a different working schedule to negotiating your performance-based bonuses. And what does the company willing to commit to you upfront? If you deliver XYZ, what are you going to get on the delivery date? So there's all sorts of things that are outside of the normal.

You know, here's my base salary that are important to bring to the table, at least from a small and medium enterprise perspective. And I think that's actually one of the reasons why I pushed a little bit back on, I think the counteroffer sort of dilemma, which is, you know, if a company comes back and tries to low-ball you after you high-balled them, which you should be doing. What is that, is that speak to the character of the company and should you move on immediately? And, you know, from my perspective, it's, again, I'm saying this all from a small and medium company perspective. Different strategies you got to employ when you're going into a large company.

But from a small and medium company, you know, my number one objective is to build trust and to get you what you want that's going to make you do this year for two to three years, at least. And so, you know, if we can't have those types of conversations upfront about, you know, important things like salary and compensation, you know, that's a signal to me that we're not going to, you know, when you ask for a raise in, you know, in six months we're going to have, you know, problems. When, you know, there's a product deadline that we have to hit and, or we have to make a commitment to the product side of our company.

You know, you're unwilling to even discuss the dynamics of committing to it, to XYZ. Like those things are critical skills in, you know, mentality that you have to have it to be successful at a small and medium enterprise. And so, like, I guess I wouldn't encourage our candidates to not engage upfront and negotiation because that really says that the whole negotiation process displays a lot about you as a candidate and also displays a lot about, you know, how that hiring manager is going to treat you and work with you. It's not a good. It's the road six months into your job. So I mean, I'm encouraging to engage in that process full, you know, full force, you know, and I think where you can really get burnt though is once you seal a deal that you renege on it.

You know, that's, you can't, you know, align in a number, get the written off or come back two weeks later, say I've gotten a better off or somewhere else, you know, some hiring managers will work with that, you know, but that always leaves us hour takes in their mouth. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, listen and Jack, I mean, you know, we're near in our time and here I have, there's viewers falling off. So we've passed the 10 to 15 minute mark, but, you know, and this is the way I want to have you on again, because I think it's talking about the interview process and being, I've talked a lot about brand, brand identity within the market.

And I think interviewing is one of the biggest brand indicators of your company. And I think a lot of individuals and companies don't get that. So yeah, again, I think that's important on the candidates side too. So I totally get that. All right. So everybody, thank you. Jack, I appreciate you buddy. Thanks for hanging out. It's plenty beer. Yeah, absolutely. So I will get Jack on again, because I think there's a lot, there's some topics that kind of came out of this that I want to kind of dive into a little bit more. If you real quick, Jack, if people want to reach you, what's the best way if the people want to catch this?

I'm assuming just LinkedIn. Yeah, LinkedIn is perfect. You're a senior developer in the who loves TypeScript. Please shoot me an email at jacketevitance. I love it. I love it. Yes, if you like TypeScript, if you like all the things, JavaScript, hit up Jack, because they're doing some cool stuff. Jack, thanks again for hanging buddy. I appreciate it. And we'll catch you. Okay. Sounds great. Thanks for having me, Taylor. Yep.