how to survive an interview w/eddie hinkle, engineering manager at glassdoor

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Hello, hello. Thanks for listening to Guidance Counselor 2.0. Listen, I want to give you a quick rundown of what this podcast is and what you're about to get into as you listen to these episodes. We had Guidance Counselors in middle school. We had Guidance Counselors in high school, but we didn't really have Guidance Counselors in college and now as professionals, we don't really have anybody to turn to to ask a quick question to learn something about the job search or to navigate your career. And so that is what I want this podcast to be for you. I want it to be a tool for you to navigate the job search and your career.

So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you need to reach me, Taylor at vaco.com is how to get in touch with me old fashioned email social media at tdesint. D E S S E Y N. And finally, please rate and review this in the app store because I want this to be discoverable for others so they can navigate their careers. Hope you enjoy the episode. So let's go ahead and get started. So Eddie, let's get the people what they want, man. Who are you? What do you do? We'll go from there. Yes, sounds good. So yeah, my name is Eddie.

And I'm an engineering manager at Glassdoor. And yeah, as someone mentioned, you try not to slam the doors too hard or get frustrated because, you know, Glass is fragile. No, but yeah, we have a great time. We're mostly virtual, so no worries about glass shattering. I love it. I love it. So Eddie, let's go ahead and dive in, man. Got a few topics to cover. And also, too, I didn't even prep you on this. I'm going to try in 2023 to talk a little bit more about the why of people and trying to get into more of your career, how you got started, because I feel like, again, Guidance Counselor 2.0, I want to kind of take it back to kind of people's OG story.

And so I want to start with that. And so why software, let's talk about that. How did you get into software? What got you interested in it? Yeah, no, that's a great question. Really, as a kid, I was homeschooled. So I had a bunch of time on my hands. And I built random websites back when I was 13, 14 years old, just like with visual things and stuff. So it really started with the websites. And over time, as I knew how to program online doing the websites, people wanted more and more complex things. So I was at college for a while, and there was a newspaper.

And they said, hey, we'd like to make it easier to post this stuff. And that was more application. So really, I think the biggest thing is I love a blank page. And I love seeing what comes out of a blank page. So you start out, right, blank page, and you get to build this not just site, but interactive application that people engage with. And it comes from nowhere. And that just, there's something really, that fills me with a lot of joy about that, particularly when I can be partnered with a designer who makes something look really cool. And I look at them like, that looks so beautiful.

And then at the end, I've actually built it. And I'm like, I have no idea how I actually built something that looks that beautiful. But thank you for the designer for giving me these cool designs. Why, and I'm curious too, right? Let's go a little even before, like, why websites, right? was there a moment, a movie, what got you into the tech ecosystem? Yeah, that's a good question. We'll see. Now you're the one throwing out these amazing questions that I haven't been asked before. Um, I haven't really thought too much about either. Was it a video game? You know, I think it was just the easiest thing to do, like, because when you're a teenager, right, like you can't jump into building a video game.

like particularly like a 3D video game. Um, and I think besides that, it was the ease of distribution, right? Like I didn't have to have a big company behind me. I didn't have to have all this complex tooling. Like literally when I started, I was uploading HTML files to a web server and like then being like, Hey, check out this cool thing, like to friends and family. And like I could do that. Um, and I think that the other thing that really kind of took me that next step, Like you said, to why the web and like why websites and stuff. I was actually on this message board.

I was into this book series called Left Behind the Kids. And they had this whole like, yeah. And they had this whole discussion board. And so me, I got on there and met a bunch of friends. And then one day the publishing company decided they were probably spending too much money to maintain it versus like what they were getting out of it. And so they decided to pull the plug. And so they gave us like a month notice. And so me and my friends were like, how are we going to keep communicating? And that's actually before I had ever used any programming language. I just done HTML and CSS.

And so I looked up and found this free open source software called PHP BB for PHP bulletin board software. And I downloaded it, put it up on a server, and installed a theme and stuff, and then bought a domain and pointed it to it, and told my friends like, Hey, all right, let's all go over to this discussion board I set up. No one can take it away from us. We own it. No, I put it on there. And that was really like solving that need I had. Me and my friends wanted to talk, and our talk place was going away. And that kind of ignited, I guess, the passion really from there.

I love that. So let's dive into the topic that everybody's here for today. And that's how to survive an interview. Obviously, you were an individual contributor, developer grew up, manager now, you've seen both sides. Let's start unpacking the interview process. Where do you see people struggle? Yeah, let's just start there. Where do you see people struggle? Yeah, I mean, even kind of taking that back to having been an individual contributor, I think the most terrifying thing is going into like a coding interview, right? A technical interview. It's fine to talk, it's fairly easy to talk about, oh, here's my experience here and there, and like the cultural stuff, you either fit or you don't.

But the technical interview, you can be programming for years. And now in 40 minutes, you have to like show someone what you've learned over like, you know, 2,000 hours of programming and so many interviews, I and as well as many other people, walk away from the interview feeling like I didn't indicate everything I know in that 40 minutes. And like it feels like that rejection when you get rejected, it feels like it tells you you're not a good programmer. But really, a lot of times I think you're just not good at communicating what you've learned over all the years of your programming, rather than you not being a good programmer.

So let me ask you this, because again, I'm not a developer. I've never been a technical interview. But interview, so I'm going to say this. And then of course, I'm going to say this, and then I may have people come out from me. but I've never struggled with interviewing. I just never have. Even in college people are like, you need to practice interviewing. I was like, well, how do you practice interviewing? It just needs to be like a conversation. Like what do you mean? So, but I do understand the technical interview, there's obviously some gotchas and some on purpose, some not. But I also feel like a lot of times like developers just don't try to have a conversation.

Now I could be wrong, I could be wrong, but I feel like if it's like, like, hey, I want you to design ABC. And if ABC does not line up for the developer, like, ah, fuck it. And they don't talk through. It's like, well, I haven't done A, B and C before, but I've done D, E, F. Here is what I've done with D. So like, like, does that happen? Let's break that down a little bit. Yeah. No, no, I think that's a great point. I think the combination of trickiness is that programmers spend a lot of their time programming on their own, right? So they've built up the programming skills, not in talking things through and communicating.

And so when they go into a technical interview, I think you walk in thinking, okay, I need to show my technical skills, which means I need to do it like I'm doing it every day, which means you kind of shut down your communication, you go into your head, you're trying to problem solve, right? And so I think that's definitely one big challenge. And I think the other big challenge is it often feels like a test, you know? And so you kind of feel like you're going into this test and your interviewer isn't a person, it's a proctor, right? They're watching you to make sure you're the right person that you're doing things right.

And really, like, I think when you flip it, exactly the way you're talking about. No, this is a conversation, right? And like, I always try to, you know, now as an engineering manager, I always try to start the conversations and say, Hey, listen, I am like, you know, one of your coworkers. Like during this time, imagine I'm a peer programmer and like we can pair together and like just try to drop that water line with them because that helps them get out of their head. But not everyone does that. So I think if they can flip that, it's important. Do you, and I want to get to a few comments here that we've gotten so far, Allison, it's great to see you.

Cassandra, going back, yes, that's why I got into coding. I love making things out of nothing to benefit others. It's so satisfying taking a blank page and building something. Paul Gower, it's great to see you buddy. You know, so cool. That's a part of, I love solving pain points in such a powerful way. Becky comes in, yes, the technical interview piece basically so nervous, and they're also different expectations. You know, a lot of preaching here, yes, the technical interview part is so difficult. It feels like a gotcha. But if you can turn into a conversation. So is that a bad look or do you think Haramiers would be okay if it gets more casual?

Because I feel like so many people go into an interview and they're all stiff and rigid and they feel like they have to be a shell of themselves. I guess that's why interviewers have been hard for me. I'm like, Like, I'm me. Like, and if you don't want me, that's okay. And so, do you sense that with people interviewing? Yeah, absolutely. I think it's funny because the way I interview changed dramatically as soon as I became an engineering manager. Because I always thought like this weird idea of what people expected from me. And suddenly when I was an engineering manager, I realized I just want to understand how this person thinks, what they do, and that means they can be casual.

The more casual they are, the less nervous they are, the more I truly understand who they are and what they think. I had an interview with one person and they were so nervous during the live interview. At that company, I actually was giving people the option to do a take home or live coding and they were so nervous. I stopped. I said, listen, from our conversation so far, I'm pretty sure you aren't showing me everything that you have to bring to the table. Like do the take home and then like, let's have a follow up interview after that, right? And that's not always an option.

But I think the point is, I could tell that this person was so nervous, they weren't showing everything that they had to bring to the table. And I think the more casual you are, the less stressful you make it in your mind, the more you kind of, you know, bring that down. the more the hiring manager gets to know because they don't want someone who's necessarily all buttoned up. They want someone who can think on the think on the ground and they're looking and wondering like how are you going to engage with fellow programmers and so the more casual and like the more you can act like you're talking to appear the better they see that.

Yeah and Paul comes in here too. And Eddie, I want to piggyback on this comment and ask how you set up your interviews. Paul goes, I think it'd be better to approach the tech interview as a pairing session. We're not only the interview is coding, but also giving one, giving the interview is coding. Then it's a give and take. Yeah, I love that as well. You know, I also think too, I think interviewing needs to be a buffet. Like, like for me, I don't have the time after hours to do a coding eval. But I would be fine doing a coding eval live during the interview because I just don't have the time afterwards.

Some people don't want to do that. Some people want to do it after. So I'm curious, Eddie, how do you guys have it set up or at least your team with Glassdoor? And then what are your thoughts on kind of the all the card buffet option as well? Now I'm hungry. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, I think there's, you know, there's a balance to be had. And so like one caveat I will call out right is like Glassdoor is a big company. And so because of that like in order to make sure bias doesn't get in like we need systems and processes. So I will say like what I do at previous companies at smaller companies when we didn't need as many processes, I lean leaned towards that buffet option right because I know that everyone has different strengths.

At Glassdoor, we do have more of a specific thing where you do a coding interview with a front-end engineer. You don't really code a lot with the engineering manager. Sometimes you'll dive into a little bit code, but the engineering manager is more having technical conversations with you, trying to get a feel for how you how you think, how you process, what kind of situations you've been in to get that holistic perspective. And then you actually are doing like live coding with peers or like say a lead front-end engineer or a senior front-end engineer, if you're like coming in as a junior mid or senior. So.

Okay, I love that. I love that. Yeah, Becky goes, I love your approach on pairing. That also is more realistic than the job. That's been my experience in my first job currently the team is always. Yeah. And listen, you know, I've seen the memes. I'm sure you've had two in the comments where the technical interview is harder than the actual job. And, and I think, I think if, here's the deal, the people, the hire managers who take the approach that you are, hey, let's, you're nervous. Take a time out. Let's regroup. Let's do this tomorrow, whenever, or the hire managers that really kind of get on the level and meets the individuals on where they're at.

Typically, having better retention rate than somebody, then then the teams that put you through a Amazon now, again, it's Amazon that flex, I fang is kind of off in its own world. Like, I won't even compare that. But I don't think it's a coincidence that the engineering managers who sit and meet people where they're at have the better success rate for retention thoughts. Yeah, I think absolutely. Um, and part of me says, I don't know necessarily, I think part of it may be the interview process, but I think there's also a holistic component. Someone who's going to approach interviewing that way is also taking care of their team and is engaged with their team as a true manager and a champion for them.

And so I think, you know, yes, they may be getting people in for the right positions better because they're like understanding that person. But I think also from the holistic sense, once the person's in there, they're less likely to leave because they're like, man, I got lucky to have this manager. Like if I go to another company, I might not get another manager who cares for me like this, who looks out for me like this. But I think part of it is just kind of who you are as a manager. And when you're that kind of manager on the day to day, you're going to be that kind of manager on the interview process as well.

as long as you don't get in your head and think I need to become, yeah, like a thing interviewer. Like if you are not a thing company, you don't need to interview like a thing engineering manager. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So we've had some yes, agree, Eddie's preaching here. John, technical interview suck. I feel like there's no true way to give them. No, and there's not. You know, this goes into the standardization of titles in the industry. It's out. I mean, it's just a mess. My experience as the tech has always been 100% harder than the actual skills needed for the job. Yes, 100%. Again, I think the hiring mayors that can change that and go from making an exclusive interview to an inclusive interview are the ones that really change the game.

Jordan, it's great to see you. So Brian, that's a great question, which is going to go to our next kind of segue. So Brian, thank you so much. How do you help your engineers navigate and plan their career path? And the second part of the second topic we're going to touch today that Eddie brought up is when is it time to leave? Right? When is it time to leave your current job? So, Eddie, so let's do this. So Brian, I'm gonna get your question a second, but Eddie, let's talk about some general thoughts. When is it time for someone to leave? Yeah, absolutely. So I think there's a couple of things going on, right?

I think one thing, one piece of advice that I got from a manager back early on in my career that's kind of stuck with me ever since is like if you take a calendar, do a paper calendar that no one sees probably at your home because this is going to be a private thing. When you think dang, I hate that I worked here today, right? Like this is the worst day. You take a pen and you cross off that day, you just put a little X through it. This was an X day, right? And at the end of the month, you look back and you say how many X days were there, right?

You don't have to count it. Just look and be like, is half the month covered in Xs or is it less or is it more? And if over half the month is covered in Xs, it's probably time to start dusting off your resume, you know, brushing up on your interview skills, starting to look at what jobs are out there. Because I think one of the big dangers is oftentimes people don't move on until they're so fed up with their job that they're in emergency mode, right? And then you're not able to like get the right dream job because you just got to get a new job because you've got to get out of there.

I mean, that's it. I mean, and, and, and, you know, part of the reasons why I have this show is just to make sure the shit I say is correct. And I've been saying that I think, I think people wait until they are until they are at their with send to find a job. And then they take another job. It's for example, I use this joke all the time. It's not a joke, just a story, where I was looking to buy my first car, right? So I moved to Nashville in 2011 out of college. I was still driving like a beat up Camry. And I was like, I went to the car dealer and they put me at the time, a 2011, no, it's 2013, it was 2013 out of the car.

So it was a 2013 Camry, brand new Camry, 86 miles on it. And I was like, oh my gosh. I was like, and he was like, he was like, do you like it? I said, man, I said, you could have put me in anything new or even anything better than I was at, and it was gonna be great. Cause I was already at my wit's end with my camera already, right? So anything I would have put in, anything I would have tried out would have been amazing, right? Now, do I regret having that car? No, I still have it 10 years later, and it's great.

But the thing, but what I'm trying to get across is, If I, for me, is if I weren't a really bad spot, I could have pulled the trigger on the Camry and it would have been the wrong car for me, but I was, because I was so ready just to get rid of my old car that I wasn't thinking through the option. And so I love that a ton. There definitely some people chiming in. For instance, agreed with that. I second that. Ooh, great way to look at it. I would have left several jobs way sooner. You rush it and make more mistakes. emergency mode, your attitude and how you will show up will also be affected.

Yes. Listen, I've talked to a lot of people that are at their width and with their job. And I'm going to tell you all this. You all come across very negative when I talk to y'all. So unfortunately, no one on this chat I've talked to that's done that. But there are some people that I've talked to who are at their widths and it comes across. So check, check yourself if you know what I mean. But any what else, man, from when is it, when is it time to leave? Any more thoughts on that? Yeah, I mean, kind of tied in with that, but I think one of the things to understand is in this day and age, you never know what can happen with your company.

There's layoffs going on. You can get fired for all sorts of reasons. And I think one of the things is, anytime something weird happens in the job, you should write it down, document it. I've had situations with other companies that I won't go into. But the thing that saved me from getting into some real hot water is I had documentation of who said what, what my review, like what my annual reviews had said, right? I kept on to my annual reviews and stuff. And your manager can change on a whim, right? Like suddenly your manager gets promoted, or they leave, and a new manager comes in.

And you just have to know that like your job is fluid. and not be set in like, this is the company I'm going to work for for the next 10 years. Some companies, I've worked there longer than I expected. Other companies, I've worked there a lot shorter than expected because things change and jobs are fluid and just understanding that and kind of waking up and looking at every day as like kind of a new day and say, what's going on now? Where am I now? And like, how does that impact my career is a huge important thing about when deciding when to leave and stuff?

Yeah, you bring up a great point, Paul, the Tae Tae's ABCs always be connecting. Yeah, absolutely. Paul, thank you. And so it's interesting. So I'm a big college football fan. I went to University of South Carolina, go Game Talks. And I love recruiting, like the actual active recruiting. I love it. To be honest, I think if I were to ever retire, I would love to go be a college football recruiter. I don't know if I can deal with 18 year old kids, but I just think recruiting is fascinating. And one of the things that is coming out right now, especially for the people who follow football, is NIL, name image likeness, right?

Now you can essentially just pay players, right? So it originally was started to get sponsorships, two players now, people are just paying players like straight cash, right? So, but the thing is though, is that one of the things that's fascinating that's come out of this is, do you go, do you commit to a college to go play football because of the academics? Do you go commit because of the coach? Do you commit because of the location? Do you commit because of the actual job that they are committing you to? Yes, you can be a starter as a freshman. Yes, you are going to be a wide receiver.

Yes, you're going to be defensive that. Right? So those are four things right there. And I think that really plays into job seekers with professional jobs as well. Why are you taking this job and why do you want to be here? Do you want to be here? Because of the coach, the manager, do you want to be here for the job requirements? Are you playing defensive back? Are you going wide receiver? Do you, is it the money, the name, image, like this? Listen, all of those are fine. But the thing is, is you have to understand that the job is fluid. And so why are you committing to the job?

Why are you committing to the college to play football? Kind of the same thing. Yeah, absolutely. It's so funny because on one of the recent episodes of WebJoy, the podcast I do, there actually was a very similar conversation. So if anyone here more of a deep dive into that, episode 32, I think it was like just two episodes ago from early January called, You never know where it's going to take you. And Rochelle Hariri, who's now a part-time CMO with different companies, came from Shopify. And we were talking about our journey and how like for both of us, every job that we've had, we've gotten something different out of it.

And like she has specifically chosen jobs for specific skill sets and things like that. And not, you know, I think it was interesting because at my last company, I was an engineering manager and I am an engineering manager now at Glassdoor, but I actually came on as an IC. And a lot of people might look and be like, why did you become an IC at Glassdoor? And the reason is, is because, you know, a year before I had tried to be an engineering manager at lots of well-known companies. And a lot of times I wasn't even hearing back. And so I came to the conclusion that I needed a big name company on my resume, even as an IC before I was gonna be considered for a big name in the engineering manager role.

Okay. And so I said it's, I knew I wanted to head towards larger well-known companies and get out of the startup space. And so I thought I'm going to apply to a bunch of companies that are well-known as an IC role, even if they don't have an engineering manager role, because that can get me in the door. And sure enough, I got in the door, had a great first year at Glassdoor, and then shifted into an engineering manager role when that was available. And sometimes you have to take that step down to get where you wanna go, but you gotta know where you wanna go.

That's a whole nother interview in and of itself. I think, I think Eddie, we're just gonna have to get you back on to talk about this. That's so good. Yeah, RJ comes in here for me. It's the coach and the job, probably 80, 20, 70, 30 coach, which is manager, you know, obviously he reports too, which I totally get. All right, Eddie, any final thoughts as we wrap up here, 30 minutes flies as we're having fun, any final words of wisdom? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, back to the kind of interviewing thing to like one last touch on it, I think, you know, when you're in a technical interview, you can be given a lot of things and you might not be able to get to all of it.

So like one while you're having that conversation, ask questions like, hey, this seems like, you know, a lot, what should I tackle first, right? And you should prioritize the most important skills that they're looking for, you know, as you're doing that technical, in case you don't get to all the code. They don't care, you're not flunking. If you don't get to all the code, they wanna see how you're doing, how you're thinking. And if you're able to prioritize appropriately, that says something very important about you as an engineer. And that can be long signaled to the manager that'd be a good hire. I love that.

I love that. I always end with and Morgan it's it's hey late to the party. That's all right. I love it The last question as you wrap up guidance counselor 2.0 we had guidance counselors middle school high school sometimes college, but now not so much anymore What would be your biggest piece of career advice to your younger self? I Think the biggest piece of career advice would really be knowing where I want to go right a lot of my career I just kind of went aimlessly and I didn't make those intentional choices like we've been talking about and I think Since I've started making intentional choices.

My career has gone uphill a lot faster Because I'm moving with the intention. I Love that. I love that so much sweet. All right, y'all. Well, that is it for today Eddie stay on When I ended I want to say bye to you, but thank y'all so much the the the the chat was lit as the kids say Also to want to give a shout out to that conference. So I will be speaking at that conference outside of Austin, Texas starting Sunday. If you are near, if you are driving distance or flying to the Austin area and want an excuse to go get Torcheese tacos and how else the barbecue place I went to though so good last time that I'm gonna go again.

It's one of the famous ones. Shoot, what's it called? I forgot. If you want to go get really good barbecue and you want to go to Torchis Tacos and also hang out with some tech folks, go to that conference. If you use the code GC2, you get a few bucks off your tickets. But again, thank you all so much for hanging out with us today. Tomorrow, I didn't have a guest, but not anymore. So just be me running solo tomorrow, Wednesday, we're back with a guest, Thursday, Unicorn Fridays and Friday, we have another guest as well. So busy, busy packed week for I head out to Texas.

I'll see you all tomorrow. Take it easy. Thanks, Eddie. Bye, everyone. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode, and I am very grateful, because you know why? There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes, and I myself rarely finished an entire episode, so I appreciate you so, so much for listening. Quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the App Store. I want this to be discoverable to others, and the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it. Please, like right now, unless you're driving, then don't do it.

So thank you again. If you need to reach out to me, Taylor at Vaco.com or at T-Dastin on all social media handles. And I hope you have a fantastic day.