managing workload and delegation w/kelly vaughn, director of engineering at spotai

full transcript

auto-generated from the audio, so expect a few typos. the audio is the source of truth.

Hello, hello. Thanks for listening to Guidance Counselor 2.0. Listen, I want to give you a quick rundown of what this podcast is and what you're about to get into as you listen to these episodes. We had Guidance Counselors in middle school. We had Guidance Counselors in high school, but we didn't really have Guidance Counselors in college and now as professionals, we don't really have anybody to turn to to ask a quick question to learn something about the job search or to navigate your career. And so that is what I want this podcast to be for you. I want it to be a tool for you to navigate the job search and your career.

So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you need to reach me, Taylor at vaco, VACO.com is how to get in touch with me old fashioned email social media at T D S and T D E S S E Y N. And finally, please rate and review this in the app store because I want this to be discoverable for others so they can navigate their careers. I hope you enjoy the episode. All right, can I know from your run of my mouth? Who are you? What do you do? And we'll go from there. Yeah, so I am Kelly Vaughn. Hello. I am a director of engineering at a video intelligence startup called Spotty Eye.

So I've been here for going on next week will be nine months. Prior to that, I was an entrepreneur for a full time for a very long time, about eight years. Founded a development agency focusing around e-commerce. did that for a while, co-founded a SaaS startup as well. So I've done the bootstrapping, I've done the venture backed side of things, and now I'm completing my trifecta, I think, of working for somebody else. Yes, absolutely, absolutely. I wanna give some shots, people tuning in. Nicholas, it's great to see you, JC from Memphis, Ricardo, Bill, Emmett, what's up, buddy? Neil, Kevin, it's in Chris, it's great to see y'all.

So Kelly's got a great newsletter. I highly recommend checking it out. Listen, I love, I am like a 62 year old mother. I love emails. But I do sign up for a lot of email newsletters and Kelly's is one of the few that actually read. So I would highly recommend Kelly. Where can people sign up for that? Yeah, you can go to engineering leadership.xyz or if you're too lazy to type engineering, you can type eng leadership.xyz because I definitely bought the short version too. That's amazing. I love it. Yeah, do it. And that being said, Yolanda, it's great to see you. It's always great to see you, girl.

I hope you're doing well. Alan, it's great to see you also. Let's talk about your newsletter. John, it's great to see you. Especially your last email, which was, I'm going to look at it now, it was lesson number four on managing your workload. So today's topic is around leadership, but it's a little more specific around delegation and managing your workload. So Kelly, I want to hear your thoughts on managing your workload, and maybe some personal stories too. Yeah, so let me back up a little bit. The newsletter, the purpose of like the structure of the newsletter is that you're able to read the entire newsletter talked about in under five minutes because we're busy, I'm busy.

You time yourself? Do you read it? No, no, Substack has the automatic reading and speaking time. I definitely do not time myself. I'm like, yeah, that looks about right. And then I check it. Yeah. It's a very scientific process. Also, lesson four was actually lesson five. I'm still learning how to count to five, but we're now at lesson five managing your workload. I had to fix it afterwards. I was like, oh, cool, I did that wrong. But here we are. So yeah, so this most reason when was on managing your workload, this is something I've struggled with for a long time. This is something that, you know, especially as an entrepreneur when you're wearing all the hats and then you're at a smaller startup, you're still wearing a lot of hats.

You're trying to figure out how in the world am I going to spend my time during the day? And one of the things I found myself doing every single morning was like every single like Monday morning, I'd look at my to-do list and I'm like, all right, which things are not going to get done this week. Like where am I going to drop the ball this week? Mentally, that's a very negative statement. Like you're already kind of setting yourself up for failure by coming in from that approach. So I started kind of flipping the script a little bit and be like, all right, what can I get done this week?

Like what is going to make me feel like I had a successful week, even though things are not gonna get done. And a little bit earlier, I had like a stint of running a lessons in not engineering leadership, but entrepreneurship, did that for a little bit. And in one of my newsletters back then, I had wrote about my process being this like one, two, three kind of step. So every week you pick one thing that's absolutely must get done. Like this would, if you get this thing done, you had a really successful week. I love that. Two, pick two things to kind of back up that first thing.

So if you finish it, great. If you get to these next two things, or one of these next two things, I mean, you don't have to get them done in the week, but it gives you kind of guidance for the next step. And then three is three little, like the little tasks that you never really give yourself time to do. And the reason why I put these in here when we're already like, we have so many things to do. Like why are we talking about this? Right. I need brain breaks. I don't know about you. sit there and think for eight hours straight about like strategy and compliance and audits.

So I can shift my brain off and be like, all right, I'm going to clean up my email or my to-do list is extremely out of date. Let me just fix it up or I'm going to reach out to a couple people and just check in with them and just like see how they're doing. And that gives me like kind of like allows me to split up my day a little bit and give me some things to fall back on in the meantime. So I've really adopted this one, two, three strategy and it's helped me tremendously from like not just just like a productivity and efficiency standpoint, but also just mentally.

I'm kind of coming in with a lot more structure around what it is that I'm gonna be doing. I love that, I love that. I wanna give people some more shots. Matt, it's great to see you. Lynn, do you work with Lynn from Austria, Vienna? Oh, that's to me, sorry I was doing my coffee. I was enjoying that one sip of coffee I had. Yeah, sorry. No, I did not. It's great, listen Lynn, I was just in Vienna over the summer and I fell in the city. I love your city so, so much. It's wonderful. I can't believe we are both in Vienna and not at the same time.

We were there less than 30 days apart. Yeah. You and I were less 30 days apart. Sid, it's great to see you, man. Sid was my boss in Raleigh and he was one of the best bosses I have, so Sid's great to see you and Melinda is great to see you as well. So I want to talk about the brain breaks real quick, right? Because I've become fascinated with this, especially, you know, I think it's been fascinating following your journey and learning from you, because I feel like I'm like, I'm like 10 steps behind you and kind of like where I'm going as well. And so, um, watching your growth has been really cool.

So talk about the brain breaks because I've become more fascinated with brain breaks, like in the last three months and ever before. I live for brain breaks. I can't, I cannot survive a day without brain breaks. If I put up like a picture of my, uh, my calendar and it's gotten better as I re-orged and put in some tech leads to kind of alleviate some of my meetings. I was wall to wall basically every single day of the week. I had like, oh, cool. I have 30 minutes break this time today. I have lunch blocked off on my calendar, which is mostly respected occasionally. It's still enough of meetings at that time.

But if I don't allow myself brain breaks, I am not really like, I can see my energy level just like sinking during the day. And I have like a nice little collection of like energy drinks over here. Yeah, I live like I have my cup of coffee sometimes. Sometimes all day. Yes, sometimes two in the morning. And then I have one or two of these in the afternoon. I also just like the taste of these things. So that helps. It just gives me something to tell Kelly. She's trying to work on that sponsorship. I see you girl. I see you. Oh, what are they called?

What are they called? This here is going to it'll come into focus eventually. There we go. They are TI. They're currently on sale right now because the company is going out of business. Oh damn. Well, no sponsorship. There goes a sponsorship. There goes a sponsorship. I'm going to save it just in this one little live stream we have here going. I love it. So you are, so I've had to learn how to schedule, so I've scheduled lunch on my calendar because I was not eating. And then I also noticed too that I find myself kind of scrolling through TikTok towards the end of the day and when that happens, I just stop working.

Um, because I realize my brain is, is done. I mean, do you have any hacks or tips for people who may be dealing with that? Uh, first and foremost, put your most intensive work at the beginning of the day. That is one of the biggest things. I have to go live in the morning. Exactly. I do my, my deepest thinking work at the beginning of the day, which thankfully most of my team is on the West Coast. So I generally unbothered in the morning. And I'm able to have like a, you know, a consistent time there. That'll allow your afternoons to be focused a little bit more around the busy work that needs to get done.

But, you know, you can't, you really need to listen to your body and understand, you know, you're going to come in with different levels of energy, whether, you know, depends on what you ate, how you slept. If you've like worked out recently, like there's so many factors that go into your energy levels during the day. And we tend to start really strong and go downhill. And that's why we tend to reach for that caffeine in the afternoon. And so I've structured my day to do my deep thinking in the morning, wherever I can. And then mostly I'm doing like one on ones and things like that in the afternoon, where I can split up my day that way.

But I also recognize, and I do this with my team as well, like if you're just not mentally there anymore for the day, take the day off, like take the rest of the day. I say the same thing, I'm so glad you say that too. I tell my team one of the things, and actually sit, sit if you're still watching. So I learned this from Sid and Taylor Robertson Raleigh. This goes a little deeper with home life. Like if your home life isn't good, your work life is not gonna be good. So address your home life first and then come to work. And I kind of say that too.

Listen, if you're checked out at two o'clock and you're just struggling, just call it. It's, oh, work's gonna be here tomorrow. Yeah. Now maybe not do it for like three weeks on end. But like again, like a look. If you have a day or two even. Yeah, it's fine. That's fine. I love that. So back to managing workloads. So, you know, I think one of the things with COVID right now is people are just overwhelmed, right? People have worked too much. So I'm curious on, I guess really how to get your day back, right? I mean, I think that's kind of what it is, is really owning your day and getting it back.

Yeah. Have you read Measure What Matters? I don't read. Okay, I was going to show you the book, but it's downstairs. You know, I'm candidly, I'm like five chapters in. I'm not very far, but I'm so sold on this book. It's all about OKRs, objectives and key results. And I've been applying versions of this to my life over time, but this kind of creates a much more structured way of life. Really looking at it kind of going back to the 1, 2, 3 strategy. Like, what do I need to get done? But what am I not going to get done in return? Everything's a trade off.

You're always, if you're saying yes to something, you're saying no to something else. Perhaps you're saying yes or no to more things. What's really important as part of that is communicating what you're not going to be doing. And I think this is where a lot of people kind of get it wrong. And then, you know, a manager or a colleague or somebody is so surprised that something didn't get done when you knew you were never going to be working on it this week. So it's really important when you're structuring your day, when you're structuring your week, think about, you know, not just what will you get done, but what are you not going to be doing?

and set the set the stage set the standards early on and That way there's no real open questions around what you're doing that You know you take back ownership of your day in that sense you take back ownership of your week And I found that to be really helpful. I love that another thing I do too is I've so now running the team of 14 Just a lot I It's 15 now and it's gonna be 16 in two weeks I'm doing is I'm front loading my week with one on ones and then my Thursday and Fridays is very light. Do you do something like that?

Or do you just like try to space it out evenly throughout the week? Like, but because like my Monday, Wednesday, my Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday is like pretty much wall to wall meetings from one to five. Yeah, I, you know, I've done different versions of it over time. I used to stack my one on ones to be on two days and it worked really great when I had a smaller team. With a larger team, I tried. There was a one point where I had 12 people reporting to me and I was doing weekly one on ones. And I was so drained every single day. And it's like no surprise why it would be.

There's a lot of emotional load that carries that not just the, you know, the technical, the tactical work as well. So I switched that to biweekly, which really helped. But also I found I am more helpful for my team by splitting it up, by not kind of loading it all in one day or two days, just because I'm going to be so exhausted by the end of it, you know, from talking three hours straight about, you know, potentially like personal issues, you know, some of them can be really heavy. So don't don't stack those. I can't stack those anymore. I split them up. I just, you know, I have one on ones basically every single day.

Yeah. Yeah. Mine's mine's sprinkled. Mine's like three a day money. Tuesday, Wednesday, and then also anyways, so there's two comments. I want to get to one here. First off, I Nicholas and said I'm going to get yours in a second. Nicholas learning how to say no, probably did the most of my mental health and work schedule. I'm going to be honest with you. This and not having to schedule a meeting like immediately the next day when somebody needs something or two things that have really alleviated It's anxiety in my life the last six months. Yeah, no, I completely agree. The one tweak I would make to this is app apologizing you're not doing anything wrong.

Boom, boom. Your time is your time. You only have so much of it. It's fine. It's okay to be like, I don't have time. You gotta own it. And that's what I'm saying. I think with me, it's so funny. Oh my gosh, my other boss is on here. Lord have mercy. That was great to see you. But I totally agree with that. I think, and I think this is why I see with recruiters, right? Alex, Alex will take a test of this, is when I managed the recruiting team and the local team for Nashville, one of the things I went through is I sat with everybody and I looked at them in the face.

I said, Hey, can you walk me through hour by hour what you do? So I looked at them and I go from eight without look at your calendar eight to nine. What do you do? And they were like, you know, I come in and I do this. It's like, great. 10. I do this. Okay. What about 10 or 11? And then by the time we get to two to three, they're just like, I don't know what I do. And so I just think people are not intentional with their day. Like if you asked me, if you asked me the same question, I could literally give you everything I do the moment I wake up at five 30 morning.

Huh? I can't. But that's okay. But what I'm saying is, is I think you need to have that intentionally and not apologize, right? Don't apologize. It's your schedule. It's your time. If you have a full entire afternoon open, but mentally you can't take that meeting, it's okay. It's absolutely okay. And it's gotten to the point where I, when I'm feeling, if I wake up in the morning and I start working, I'm like, nope, this is gonna be one of those days where I need to like busy work, busy work, busy work. I will block time off on my calendar and I'll just say busy. It is a matter of the reason why.

I'm just going to be busy doing something else that's not gonna be talking to you. I'll talk to you, Taylor, but work with you. Thanks for asking. Thanks for asking. talking about Georgia and South Carolina. Hey, hey, good dogs. Exactly, no, no. All right, so I think Sid, I like what Sid said here and I've started to do this. So I've really struggled, Kelly, I'm interested in how you do it. To-do lists and your calendar aren't, like sometimes get missed, right? Like I create this to-do list, but I schedule my calendar with all these meetings and then by Friday I'm like, shit, I haven't done anything on my to-do list.

So what I've started to do is if I started to block out what Sid said, he's blocking out time to think, which I love, and I think that needs to happen more for everybody. But I've started to block out call so-and-so for appointment. Book my daughter's doctor appointment from two, you know, from two, and I've actually put it on my calendar, because if it doesn't go on my calendar, it's not going to get done. I'm interested if you have any hacks on how do you get get the to-do list into your calendar. Yeah. So I do a lot of the same. I will book working sessions on my calendar as well to block off extended periods of time.

But one thing that's been really helpful for me is I'm a really big fan of Crawn, the calendar app. And I have my personal calendar connected. I have my business calendar, my freelance kind of business calendar connected, and I have my spot calendar connected. What's really cool is when I have a personal task I need to do, I have an appointment or I need to call somebody. As you said, I will put it on my calendar for like my personal calendar and it automatically creates a block off event time on my work calendar. Huh. I need to check that out. It's super, super great. I love it.

Okay. I'm a big, big fan of cron. I think is that CRON? CRON. Yeah. I know there's, is it the motion app? I know Jerome Hardaway uses, I think the motion or something like that. I think it's kind of a similar thing. Okay. But anyways, yeah, I absolutely love that time. We've had a bunch of comments come through. Let's see here. Making a daily handwritten root checklist. I love that. I've started to go back to journaling and writing, but I still funnel all of my to do through Apple reminders for me. Let's see here. What else? I recently started putting Apple reminders in for when food expires in my pantry to make sure I throw things out.

I love you. You're the best. I love you. I love this, but I'm glad. Catch up expider, say Daniel, throw the catch up out for those who've been there Daniel, that's coming. That's fantastic. Yep. So, teacher, I do mine on Monday and Tuesday for my developers engineering. I do Thursdays for Scrum Masters and Product Narrows. I love that. Again, Intention I, right? I could sit with teacher and go, hey girl, how do you manage your day? How do you manage your week? And she could tell me that. And I think that's what you need to do. I'm gonna see her mic drop, stop apologizing. Let's see here a lot of, see her, Dr.

T, former guest of the show, being intentional with your days, the hidden gem and productivity hacks scheduling everything, even on my family calendar. Yeah. So literally my wife and I, we just send each other invites all the time. Oh, we have a shared family calendar. We just dumped things on there all the time. I'd highly recommend it. If anybody who's married or dating or serious plus one partner spouse, the thing, I'm a jigger. Highly recommend that thing. I'm a jigger. Yeah, technical term. Yeah, technical term. Um, I need to move to a company and Hey, like Awesome. I'm working on it. I just called you Blake.

Oh, yeah. Motion. Here we go. Yes. Cron and motion. Okay. I'm going to check out Cron as well. And then he uses calendar bridge. I love this. Let's see here. Okay. Cool. So delegation. So last, last 10 minutes or so here of the show. The time flies when you're having fun with friends. So one of the things I posted is delegation. Right. I've been fascinated. So you're a college football fan. I'm a college football fan. I'm fascinated with the CEO approach. I think Kirby Smart is kind of a CEO. I know Shane Beamer at South Carolina is like offensive coordinator call it, defensive coordinator call it.

I'm just gonna sit here and be the president, the owner, and deal with all the intricacies. I'm having to learn how to do that and it's hard. And so I'm curious on how you've about it, but you've been very lean and so you've had to do it all. So I'm curious on how you delegate or any hacks. Yeah, the first thing is understanding yourself and what it takes for you to trust others. you know, everyone has different levels of, you know, the trust battery kind of starts at a default amount for each individual. And you really need to think through, you know, you have to, delegation starts with trust.

Like you have to be able to trust your team or whoever it is you're gonna be delegating something too that they're going to get it done. But the caveat to that is you can't dictate how they're going to do it. Correct. And that is really fucking hard. Yeah. So this is one of the things I often see with more senior leaders who are, more senior ICs who are starting to shift more into a leadership type role, where they don't know how to do that. They're still in the prescriptive kind of education, teaching and coaching, where they're handing something off, but they're expecting you to do it the exact same way that they do.

And then you're spending your entire time thinking about, well, are they doing it that way? Well, this would be so much faster if I would just do it myself. Well, then one, they're not learning how to do something. two, you just added something back to your plate again. And there is a third one that I'm forgetting right now. So again, I know. Kelly and I are on struggle bus today. I'm even trying so hard to focus. It's just in full transparency. Cause they're my friend. Yeah. Brain work. Like it's just like listening to you talking like, Oh my gosh, the questions. Um, no, and I think that's so true.

And I think I think the art, you know, the art of delegation and, and, and true leadership, it's very hard to teach. It's just so hard and because it's learning on the job and it's trying things out and I think when it comes down to it's trust, there's so much that comes in trust. Trust, especially on a remote setting, making your employees work or knowing your employees work. To me, I think one of the biggest things to create a good remote culture is trust to let your employees execute the way they want to execute. And you're also assuming that, you know, by letting them execute the way that they want to execute, you're opening up two opportunities.

One, you're going to learn something from them because they are going to have a different method of doing it, and perhaps it's more efficient. Maybe it's better in some way. Or two, they're going to make a mistake in the method that they're doing, and they're going to learn from that mistake and never make that mistake again. Correct. And then they're going to become a better worker for that experience as well. Yeah, absolutely. Tristan goes in here. Three, you are not building trust and you may have messed up. There we go. Thank you. I love it. I love it. Yeah. And I think I think that's interesting.

I'll tell you this for leaders who struggle with delegation. I love what Kelly said. You're going to learn something. So I've, I have, I have learned so much from delegating even in the last two, three weeks with my new team to where I've learned things about the. things about the industry that I haven't learned before because I'm actually trusting my managers to manage and I sit in and I'm like, oh shit, this is good. Like I'm actually like literally our sales team had a wonderful sales call. I should have recorded it because like it was all about like listening and understanding to our clients, right?

And and you know we kind of talked about some intricacies of our industry and I learned a lot from my manager. And so I think you know humbling yourself and letting your people lead I think is the best thing you can do not only for your life and your time, but also their careers. Yeah. Chances are you're not the smartest person in the room. And that's good. I'm definitely not the smartest person in the room. And you're very smart. I'm very smart. I will own it. But I'm definitely not the smartest person in the room. There are a lot of things that I do not know.

And I'm not going to learn. A farther along you get in your career, especially as you get more into like, if you choose the management route, you're going to be managing people who know a whole lot more than you do. Because that is not your job anymore. And again, that goes back to trust. And, you know, I have, I have, uh, with so many engineers, you know, different, every engineer is kind of at a different stage in their career. And a lot of my job is helping them get to that next level or help them work through whatever barriers they're working through. And one of those right now is delegation.

It's productivity. It's, you know, if, how can I be a more efficient engineer or with these tech leads, how can I teach them to be, you know, very effective engineering leaders for these, these engineers that are on their team while not losing sight of who they are as an engineer either. Yep. Yep. Totally. It's a lot of this conversation again and again. No. And, but I think it's so true. I was actually, you answered the question that was about to ask you, it was like, you know, what do you think the ultimate goal of upper leadership is? And I think you said it perfectly. It's getting people, other people, to the next stage of your career.

I mean, to their career. I think, you know, I'm gonna say this, I think if you're a good manager, you should work yourself out of a job almost. Yeah, if it, like the dream state is to have a self-managed team. Correct. Correct. Because the more you're out of the day to day, the more you're gonna be able to focus on the bigger picture. You're gonna be focused on, you know, a quarter, six weeks, that's shorter than a quarter. Okay, you know a quarter six weeks and I'm like wait a minute. I think that's too bad here. Yeah, okay. I'm glad we're both struggling at least.

That's amazing. That's amazing. Any last words of wisdom because I have a call at 10 central. So any last words of wisdom for the crew that's here and everybody thank you for the comments. I've seen them all come in. I haven't been able to get to all of them but I don't know. Any last words of wisdom? I think the most important thing to remember both in in managing your workload and in delegation is, it's an art form and also it's very personal. The way that you work is going to be different from the way that I work. And I can tell you everything that I do, but it's not necessarily gonna work for you.

Like I can't time block, that is not for me. But it might be exactly what you need to be effective. So I would recommend just trying a bunch of different methods, see what works best for you, give it, give yourself at least a few weeks, like three to four weeks to try it out and see whether or not it works for you. And then you can pivot and change as you need or continue on if it's working for you. I love that. Last few questions before we wrap it up. And again, for those of you who have watched all the way through, thank you so much.

Go connect with Kelly on Twitter, LinkedIn, et cetera. She is a gem and has a bunch of knowledge and she's super fucking smart. The first thing, if you could, or no, not if you could, sorry, words, or, Do you have a new resolution? Man, I am not doing New Year's resolutions this year. I created a notion doc that has a bunch of quarter-legal I love that. I have my own OKRs. I'm doing a lot. I'm getting into running and so I have I know I know I just I ran a 5k for fun yesterday like last night just just because I am so I want to do my first half marathon this year So that's what I want to get into.

And you know, my big focus for this year, I've been go, go, go, go. I need to do more. I need to learn more. I need to keep going. I'm going to shift my mental, kind of like my mental framework to how can I learn to be happy with what I have and not can like grow, but not continue to push myself so far to the edge. I'm pulling back this year and I'm very excited for it. I'm going to check in with you after six weeks to a quarter. a quarter to six weeks. Exactly. I love that. I love this too. Emmett Kelliton. Yeah, I've never seen somebody.

Yeah. You such a brand. Peloton really needs to get your brand ambassador. I know. I'm a Peloton. If you're listening, I have, I just completed my trifecta. I got the Peloton row. You got the road, the treadmill. The tread and the bike. Yeah. It's, it's Peloton is the bike. Peloton tread and Peloton row. But the name in my, my Peloton name is what's a Peloton. So I have a whole brand thing going on. I love it. Last question because I ask every guest around guidance counselor tips. So obviously we had guidance counselors in middle school and high school and college, but now when we need them most, we don't have them.

They're really called therapists now, which I'm a big fan of. But what would be a good piece of career advice that you want to give out to people right now? I think you know, you covered it right at the beginning. Your network that you're building now is going to be with you, you know, for your life, whether you need them from a personal standpoint, standpoint from a career standpoint, the people who are coming in and out of your life over the course of your, well, life. It's there, they're there for you for a reason. And I think the biggest, biggest thing to remember there is people are going to come in and out of your life in different seasons of your life.

And that is totally fine. But continue to work on building that network because you never know, you know, how you can help somebody else and how they're going to be able to help you back. Love that cool. Well Kelly. Thank you so much stay on real quick as we end it so I can say body real quick All right, but for those of you who have tuned in thank you again. We appreciate it Tomorrow live with the unicorn finders crew. We are talking to a company called uprise They actually were recently featured number one on product hunt. So they are in the personal financing space And so we're gonna be live with their founder CEO tomorrow and then Friday.

I'll be hanging out with Amy Dutton Amy is a Nashville person. A Nashville person. A Nashville person. We got to end this thing. Yeah, Amy's great. Just hang out with me on Friday. I'll see y'all later. Bye. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode, and I am very grateful, because you know why? There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes, and I myself rarely finished an entire episode. So I appreciate you so, so much for listening. Quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the App Store. I want this to be discoverable to others, and the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it, please, like right now, unless you're driving, then don't do it.

So, thank you again. If you need to reach out to me, tailor at vaco.com or at T-destin on all social media handles, and I hope you have a fantastic day.