from developer to product w/jacob herrington

full transcript

auto-generated from the audio, so expect a few typos. the audio is the source of truth.

all righty what's going on everybody good morning good morning excited to be with you all today I'm always excited I'm always excited um but uh I'm I'm very excited today uh because I have I have I have a three-time guest Jacob on the show uh uh very very few folks have made on the show three times Jacob is one of the special ones I really like Jacob um and uh he has a lot of great thoughts uh there's there's only a few people I give like my like invite out to consistently and Jacob's one of them um but excited to talk about his journey um

and he just made a big switch so we're going to talk about today from from uh from product to development or development to products sorry um and also from from like startup to like big company um so we're going to talk about all that today um yeah yeah very big um so so for those of you tuning in welcome again as always please say hey we'd love to hear from you um again this is a networking platform right we're not in the metaverse yet um even though guidance counselor 2.0 and metaverse does have a nice little ring to it we're not in there yet so

please say hey no one knows if you're watching if you don't drop in and say hey and that kind of goes for every live event right now um it's really out there and so what I've realized is I want this to be a networking platform um and what I mean by that is you can literally Network at home in your pajamas right now or your full shirts like me um and what that looks like is literally just connect with everybody who comments um and then just stay in touch with them and then constantly show up it's pretty simple um and so I hope y'all are

doing well but remember if you connect with people after the show or during the show please make sure you create a note in the connection and go hey I saw you on Taylor's show because I've had a lot of people mess with me like hey can you tell everybody to like send a customized note because I don't know where these people are coming from so make sure you do that um second off ask questions right um I bring guests on who really understand Tech who really understand certain parts of the topics we're talking about um and Now's the Time to pick their brains and and

and and they don't bill you for it right which is incredibly important so please ask questions um today I want to go over kind of a few partners that I have right now first off check out talentest.ai listen do I think this software is the best interviewing software out there no however I think it's easy I think it's simple and I think it gets your brain working in the right direction I think a lot of people try to jump into interviewing like jumping into a marathon um it doesn't work you have to practice a little bit you got to get your head in the right

place I met with the guys at talentest.ai I really like them if you use a co-tailer you get a few bucks off but again these aren't life-changing questions but they do help you get your brain thinking in the correct way um and so I highly recommend checking that out I'm interested your thoughts too if you like if you hate it let me know also too the official coffee sponsor of guidance counselor 2.0 that conference it's happened in July in Wisconsin but they have bought coffee beans they got beans I'm drinking it right now literally I'm drinking it I think I'm drinking sassy syntax you can

see it right there sassy syntax check it out you get a few bucks off if you use my code um so yeah that's good um all right enough I want to get to people to tune in Anthony it's good to see you from Texas Chris Mark Jordan from Kentucky guy Riley what's up big dog Beth it's wonderful to see you hope you are doing well we're to Kansas uh Candace sorry not Kansas Alex Christina from devsum in Sweden My Fit one of my favorite countries caprina it's great to see you um it's great to see everybody all right let's go and get started Jacob let's

get the people what they want man who are you what do you do what do you do now and wha t yeah what do I do now yeah I I I've you know just made a career swap so I had to do some some interviews and stuff so I'm pretty pretty good pretty practiced at this I hope uh I generally describe myself to people like if you've ever met a Ruby on Rails engineer from a startup like that's that's pretty good place to start I fit that description pretty well which like I think generally means like generally that I'm a generalist um but I also

think that it means that there's like this weird entrepreneurial bent that's in a lot of those folks and like I sort of inherited that as I came up as a Dev because I learned through that Community um you know I'm a self-taught of what that means I prefer the term Community educated because I feel like nobody's self-taught like somebody did teach you but at the end of the day I I I'm what most people call self-taught didn't do boot camp or anything and then you know here lately I've been working at a few really well backed uh cool companies in fact I'm drinking the coffee

I don't even work there anymore uh commentator is like a really really well-funded uh coffee startup up in New England and like that was a really fun fun trip but I was only there for a little bit as an engineer and you know even a bad job and I had a couple before I we talked about this before we started recording like I I ran into the issue that like at a certain point when you're an engineer like there there are some guidelines some lanes that you're sort of told to stay inside of so when you you have like strategy ideas or when you have

inside that come from you know like me having worked in a lot of startups at this point um sometimes those aren't heard because you're the person who writes code and that's how you're seen um but people in product are sort of on that strategy ladder even if they're maybe the lower side of it sometimes so when a product personally speaks up a lot of times they can they can be heard when they say oh this might not be good for our long-term goals this might not get be good for our short-term goals that's actually your job so I I encountered that enough times that I

felt like it was worth trying to Rebrand myself a little bit and move into a space where I could steal those conversations in like better directions sometimes and as we mentioned earlier like I didn't forget how to code so like on this weird product manager that right now is is still very engineering heavy but like I'm quickly trying to learn how to do a product manager stuff and then the big footnote here is that I went from these VC back startups to Walmart which is uh it would employ 2.2 million people I think is the number I most recently saw so it's a little bit

like joining a government or joining like a state military or something like a scope so it's literally the exact opposite you know I went from I think I phrased it in a LinkedIn post I was like I went from BC startups to not a startup like there's really no other way yeah this is just definitively not a startup um yeah that's where I'm at in a nutshell but like there's so much to unpack in there and we can talk oh yeah well let's go and dive in right so so first off you know a lot of the audience that watches us are definitely engineers in

Tech right but more on the engineering side because that's just where I've played for the last few years talk about like what are some key things that just really made you want to make the jump to product because again I'm seeing a little bit of this trend you're only the second topic I've the second talk that I've had on the show about this and I'm starting to hear more about it so what are some key things that really motivated you to make the jump yeah there are several things so like it would be super discontinuous not to lead with it like engineers get paid really

well um product managers also get paid really well so like that's that's part of it like there's not a huge sacrifice if you are someone who feels a little bit bur nt out on the engineering side that this is a place where you can go and not necessarily give up that high compensation um there are a lot of other places like that too I mean data science analysts to AI people and even some non-technical roles that that you know you can do with the dev skill set but for me and the product they made a lot more sense because strategy is where my head's at

I I do have a little bit of a business education on The College Dropout but like you know I did a couple of business uh classes before I dropped out so those kind of things can make sense to me and I have noticed that when I'm in a room full of developers I have some novel ideas because I see the business side of things easier and when I'm in a room full of business people I have some novel ideas because they're through the engineering side of things and that led me to say well there is a job that is literally that so like let's just

see what that's about um but like I said I think the the core motivation like at the heart of it I don't want to like you know sound up like a pessimist but I went through a lot of startups at this point I've consulted with a lot of very early stage startups and so I've kind of seen the startup life cycle at each end of it um even one of the companies I worked for is a really mature series D company that's in a super healthy spot but they were still a startup even though they were 10 years old um so I've seen that end

of it but I've also been the second person in the room a couple times and I think that you start to see a lot of patterns you start to see a lot of predicted predictable outcomes and that's why people who work and startups helping to be really valuable because they are able with some degree of confidence to tell you what will happen when you walk into that room with those investors or when you launch this or when you hire the person because they've seen it happen enough times and I was getting to that place and I felt like I'm being heard when I when I

shared that Insight a lot and that that happened consistently enough across enough startups and I saw the consequences enough times and felt personally responsible enough times but I thought hey maybe maybe it's on me that I'm not in the right spot to like actually contribute in the way that I can so it's a long-winded answer but like I feel like all that's relevant um but the compensation thing can't be left out like it's important that product managers get paid well and I've even seen an article saying that product managers get paid more than Engineers or some some tech companies yeah we we got some questions

coming in right here um we got some yeah I'm on mobile I'm totally trusting uh Tim Cook to get me through this this podcast on Monday no you're fine you're fine it says uh dude a lot of respect Riley comes in here dude a lot of respect for everyone um going through the self-taught route the is hard and take serious dedication I love the idea of community taught I definitely wouldn't have been able to find a job as self-taught if it wasn't for great people put out informative content like can't see dogs yeah Kent's doing a lot of great stuff uh with him I gotta

say you can't see Dodds uh was one of my first podcast guests and he is a huge part of the reason why I had a podcast which is a huge part of the reason why I was able to go from getting underpaid at startups to getting a little bit overpaid at startups um is because I had that content out there and Kent is like I can't tell you how much it it that all rests on him so yeah yeah 100 um uh I I'm curious I'm curious with this question too what did Jacob learn from his business class that I've actually helped okay that's actually

a good question because I I have frequently gonna even this morning on LinkedIn I think I commented that like I don't think college is super valuable um and I'm actually right now debating whether or not I should go back to school and finish my college degree now that I have the option to do that well I can do it now so should I like that's kind of where my head's at um so that being said what did I learn from college that's actually useful on on maybe not probably something but all this sort of stuff um and there's a lot of experiences people talk about

in college the class I honestly think that I took a couple night classes at a community college in accounting and one in statistics that was pretty much just an Excel class um trying to think if there's another one um I took some night classes and I'll say that it's less important about what those night classes were than who taught them and they were valuable because the people teaching those night classes at Community College were people who were in Industry they were VPS at local companies and they were able to give me some very real information and they were able to point out when the book

was wrong like and say this is outdated this is what a college professor would teach you but it's not what your boss wants you to know um yeah so I would say those were very very helpful and those I mean the subjects were business statistics accounting and there was like a what you could I think call a microeconomic class that was basically just an Excel class um so yeah I don't know if that answers your question but I maybe I'm telling you they probably won't help but some of them you know you want to find diamonds in a row I mean listen we can go

down this conversation I think this is a whole other conversation it's just so much to unpack I I just think I mean God lord I don't want to go down this route it's going to open up a whole can of worms I want to talk about product all that stuff I'll tell you I think that the self-taught route is not the best route I'll tell you that but I think that it is it is one right and I think right now another friend of mine who's a career changer he was an audio engineer and now he works on the go rails platform which is a

great platform if you are some one who wants to sell teach code and and he'll tell you I think all day just like I will that it's not as easy as people make it sound and sometimes maybe maybe you should have just gone to college you know to get the job so it just everybody's experience is different yep um I do want to get to this question this is a great question or not question question statement I have 100 thought about the jump I'd do it because I love talking with people my favorite part of engineering is making a product come to life from start

to finish Jacob is this is this the right type of thinking does this need to be changed a little bit what are your thoughts on this I mean totally look at us right I'm on a podcast so like I obviously like talking to people um but I think that I think that the the passion for like getting to know people is a big part of it that like I don't just like talking to me people getting to know people even like you know Taylor you spend most of your time connecting with people on the internet and like that's how we met through Twitter and like

but I wanted to stay in touch like I don't just want to meet somebody get their engagement on my content or whatever and then move on like that's kind of weird I would rather build relationships and product is mostly mostly managing relationships um the second part of that I think um it just saying like bringing things to life I worked in I.T for like a year before I got into coding as like an intern at a large company and honestly way more fun in some ways than coding because every day like at least once I was gonna solve someone's immediate problem and like get like

that positive feedback that I helped them and for me that was really validating so if you get validation for like seeing some income to life and like hearing people like your thing that's a compelling reason um caveat that with most people won't like your thing so right right yeah well so so I'm going to ask you this right my so my brothers talked about th is um and uh and I'm interested to your thoughts because he's in product two at Eventbrite and he said he said product's tough because when it's it's kind of the whole thing like when it's good it's not you when it's

bad it's you like you kind of are punching people um because I think a lot of people think products great I just talk to people all day I make the product go boom and like do stuff like that but actually like there's a lot of pivoting my brothers talked about the constant pivoting that that's there constant change requirements kind of being a punching bag can you expect I do want to talk about the just what I mean just a realistic part of it too no yeah I mean I mean I'm only at this you know this company I'm only a month into doing this really

but sure I've done half I mean the reason why I'm here it's funny I went to a scrum training on what a product owner is and that uh you know has anyone actually ever worked in an environment that does this what it's described and like I raised my hand and it was like really uncomfortable because I was having like four people the only ones that actually worked I guess we actually do scramma way yeah and they kind of asked like how'd you do that it's like you have to like if you only have five million dollars like it's how you have to work um right

you can't do the other thing so you know in those places probably things like product owner or scrum Master a lot of times you'll hear people describe those as either jobs or roles like it doesn't necessarily have to be someone's full-time job the scrum master or whether the product owner or whatever it can be something that I just do during the Spring and that's always kind of been a place that I've been like I've always kind of helped I guess execute like get the actual results or get the actual feedback or like get things to Market or have been willing to say like we shouldn't

make that like that's a big thing that a lot of Engineers struggle to say um and so by the t ime I got here I already kind of had that skill set when I went to that training like it was very you know I learned some stuff but it was a lot of refresher and things like that so I would say that the reality of the job is so vague that it's not like super important to like I guess know everything about it when you go into it it's just being comfortable the fact that like this job is going to be different every company you

do it at and there's going to be really crappy parts of it and there's gonna be some really fun parts of it and like if you can deal with that ambiguity then like it may be it is for you yeah 100 uh Alex comes in here goes did you notice a lot of differences between the interview process as startups versus not startups I'm gonna say so this is probably probably wrong but I'm gonna say no and I'm gonna say no because I think that the way corporations are are doing an interview I'm talking about engineering jobs because I've done you know I'm one of those

people that never really says no to an interview and like I did that as an engineer for a long time and everybody's kind of interviewing with the same same book right now like the people that interview differently it's those companies it's nothing to do with the size of the company it's because the executives there are deciding to interview differently um yeah I'll say I want to talk about this because I'm sure it'll be relevant to Taylor's audience here but like when I got hired at Walmart I didn't go through the traditional route in fact a recruiter had me apply to the listing after I was

already pretty much in the process because they wanted to get me to the software um and that's the same thing I did at startups like it's not that different it's just about figuring out where you can sort of get your foot in the door where you can provide value before you're hired maybe and then like suddenly that door opens up and you don't really need to worry so much about how the company hires people yeah they're going to put you through their process because it's like a religion so some of those people and it just isn't right right now so that that may not be

applicable device for someone who's trying to to get an engineering job but yeah maybe ignore the process if you can if you can't it's not the company for you you know yeah 100 uh Taya it's great to see you um Jason's great to see you too um Chris first great see you as well um Emmett comes in here goes I love being able to see customers win using our products um I would imagine just as a developer like that's gotta feel good it's just it's It's gotta feel good yeah definitely because like you said uh when it doesn't work it's your fault you know so

when it works and it gets to be your fault that's pretty fun yeah um let's see here there's a question right here what is the most important skill to switch from developer to product manager somebody says identifying value that's a good answer um I see what what you mean there like Engineers may not necessarily know why they're bullying what they build but if you and I think that generally they're smarter than people think and they do know why but if you're one of one of the kind of people that just wants to dig into why that that's that's identifying value I think but I think

to to answer that question for myself I mean I think honestly I think Taylor could answer this I think it's sales like I think it's I think it's your ability to to talk to people because you're gonna have to sell yourself especially if you want to make a transition really hard and then you're also going to have to get into a role where now a big part of your job is convincing people that what you're doing is worth doing which is that identifying value but that's a little bit subjective because value means different things for different people and so you're gonna have to learn how

to identify that value and then turn it into a pitch like and be able to actually sell why why is this valuable so let's talk about the convincing for a second right like like as an engineer and again this is me just asking as an engineer did you not have to convince people did you have to convince people but it's not the magnitude of the product owner like can you kind of break that down a little bit yeah experience I could be wrong with this but I would ask other Engineers to sort of think about the team they're on think about the last time something

wasn't aligned and and sort of all the devs in the room aren't saying it this happens every I I've learned that people are outside the table don't realize this is happening but this happens in every meeting someone will say something and every Dev in the room knows the same thing they all know that's not visible or they all know they have shared context even the other day we run a call and someone asked about like how long do we need to retain these records and it turned into a little bit of a developed conversation about how long we need to retain the records and and

think the right thing to do and what I ended up doing was just asking like hey why do you why do you think that that's important and the answer was the engineer knew that the service we were relying on wasn't going to retain those records and so if that was a requirement we needed to do that now but they didn't ask it in a way that revealed that they were already thinking something that all the other Engineers were already thinking which is that service isn't going to save those and they yeah that's like a context that they all think that they know and maybe don't

have to share because it feels like Baseline knowledge to them but if you think about your team last time that's happened if you're an engineer there was probably someone who looked around and said like okay hold on and like explained it and you know odds are that was your Tech lead like because the kind of people who does who do that end up in those positions um and so if you if you're an engineer and you work in that Tech lead role which I ended up in a lot you definitely have to have a skill and you'll find that you know tech leads and product

managers tend to be really close on their teams because a lot of times you know they're having closed door conversations trying to figure out how do we actually communicate the stuff to the devs and also sure Executives um and that's so I would say that yeah you can you can if you want to be good at engineering you have to build the same skill set it's just the product manager now that's actually your job not just something that helps to be good at so this this may be going back to basic 101 product question but I do want to ask this Pops in my brain

because my brother isn't necessarily technical he has learned how to do some coding just the nature of his work and I know you don't always need to be technical to be a product person some may argue some may argue it some may argue that it may be better to be non-technical because you see it in a different way and yada yada what are your thoughts I mean there's no wrong answers here do you think you need to have a code like what are your thoughts on that so my opinion is that if you work with Engineers like you owe it probably to yourself but also

to the people you work with like go do a like a code academy course or something like you should know what a variable is you should know you know what it means when the programmer says like the computer said no like you know they shouldn't have to explain like when I said the computer said no it means it's out of my hands a little bit a little bit that's not how computers work and if you can understand like what that might actually feel like because you've written some code that's going to help you empathize and communicate a lot when it talks about the actual job

duties of like a product manager I don't think you need to be technical at all and I think that teams need both I think that that's kind of the beauty of it is uh that it's a role that's so poorly defined maybe the pessimistic white phrase it made me so poorly defined that almost anyone can contribute something to it with that unique perspective and I don't think that needs to be engineering but if your team has no former Engineers that are VMS or people who know how to code that are PMS like you might need one that might be a valuable thing to add I

love that um a question from LinkedIn user um uh let's see here um Jacob how do you guys validate features and value props yeah um I would say an organization in this size that's such a nuanced question that it is hard to answer I would say that in a realistic like at a lot of places um you're you're just gonna have to do that by talking to people and and being good at you know there's a there's a book and this isn't directly related to your question it's a book called The Mom test it's pretty good it's real short and it uh basically just goes

into how to how to talk to people to get like truthful information and so if you're going to try to validate something like a value proposition you need to go figure out how to ask about that value proposition without asking about it specifically and then you can gather information about that so I would say that the the only like correct answer to that from my perspective would be by by putting in front of people in whatever form we can and talking about it so it might be a sheet of paper that describes like a wireframe I put in front of you and I need to

know how does this make you feel and it may I'm not going to ask does this have value because they're not going to hurt my feelings and say no but thank you for my feelings right so I'm going to say hey how would it affect your life if this was your new you know screen that you worked in dissolved part of your day and I'll get an emotional response and I'll gauge that and and that usually tells you is this valuable or not people will get excited about value that makes sense that makes sense um Paul it 's great to see you from Paul from

Little Rock tune in I love it um yeah so uh so so Jacob as we wrap up oh we lost Jacob Jacob come back come back I think Jacob just pressed something to her stream yard kicked him out um all right well that's new hopefully Jacob uh hops back in um I'm gonna I'm gonna email him real quick oh there we go all right you're back you're back I was like I'm back yes Tim Cook there you know let's let's put that yeah so so as so as we wrap up um obviously the last time not me for not being prepared with on Apple just

kidding no you're fine you're fine so as as we wrap up here last few minutes um Jacob talk about real quick what people need to keep in mind from working from working startup versus big big corporation like as we wrap up here what do people need to keep in mind between the two yeah so the the last company I worked at just for context was venture-backed very very early stage you know uh with some traction but not not remotely at scale and it was you know going through some some uh I guess life cycle changes that made it very much like an early stage startup

and uh comparing that to joining one of the world's largest corporations like there's more in common than I expected but like the the general like rule that I'm learning now is basically just to change what I anticipate as being like a small lift or what I see as like achievable in a short amount of time because there are a huge set of problems that don't exist at the companies that I have worked at that now are suddenly very important especially when you talk about something like Walmart where the scale is is kind of unique to Walmart I don't want to say that there aren't other

companies working at a scale because there are but there are very few companies all that have the kind of real world like physical asset component that Walmart has and the like like if you build a thing at Walmart it's it's rare for you to only think about software whereas some companies that are work ing at scale all you're thinking about is software but when you think about Walmart's like no the software has to model something that is actually a very physical process almost every time um and has a physical component so that has been for me a huge huge like learning curve it is is

figuring out like you know it's different when you say like yeah the impact of this poor decision is measured in this amount of Revenue and you know affects us in this way because the software is down or flaky or whatever versus you know this decision could result in someone getting hurt or this decision could result in in numbers that make you sick to think about so we don't actually use the numbers when we talk about it like that's a that's the thing that I've seen here already is like if you ask I mean people will give you at the end of the day like the

numbers are available we do things very data driven very very I mean Walmart is very Revenue oriented um but a lot of times when we talk about things we talk in percentage points and we talk in relative terms because it would it would probably make it hard to make decisions if we start using billions uh to talk about things that seem like trivial decisions but they're not for someone at the scale um yeah again the downside of that talking a lot about like the downsides of of working at the scale but the the upside of working at the startup is there's a lot like a

lot less risk involved with making decisions there's a lot um more freedom to try things and to test things rapidly but there's also I think a lot more ego in startups because there are so many controls in place that an organization like this that is it is less likely that people will make decisions based solely on how they feel um it does happen but it's it's not every day like I feel like it would be in a startup that's again I give long-winded answers but like that's that's in a nutshell like the biggest difference is going to be pace versus like uh the controls and

like the safety and the risk like those those start to take on different meanings when you talk about things at the scale that you know at Walmart it's possible to talk about I work on the sourcing side and so like the scale is pretty absurd so it can be very easy to really freak yourself out I'm like yeah this is billions and billions of dollars of stuff we're talking about this yeah we're building yeah that makes sense that makes sense um all right so uh as you're up up here last two questions first off any Tech Trends Technologies um things you're reading right now that's

interesting that people may need to keep an eye on here in the future I mean you can't overstate like the impact of AI I think I think people are simultaneously over hyping it and like missing the point like I mean the the right now today like I feel like you're kind of making a mistake if you're not using tools like notion or chat gbt to like automate certain things um just because it's available and like it's not that hard like I think people are using it are you using it in any of your workflows at all I mean absolutely so like I I'm very careful

about what I passed those machines but like when I ask a question like if I need to build a a deck it you can ask Chad gbt to say hey build me an outline for a deck that does X Y and Z and could is going to be geared toward the audience that is you know 25 mid-level Executives at a large corporate like you know you can give it all that and it's going to give you say here is a format that like we think is going to make sense and obviously you've got to check that because this thing is only good at rearranging letters

like that's all it does but you can go check and see like no that that makes sense that's how I might write that um and then go from there so getting an outline you know which might save you two hours of trying to think how am I actually going to structure this back I'm going to ask that question I just know how it's structured and now what am I going to put in it becomes the question and that's much more valuable way to spend my time yeah it's interesting I was at a meet up last night we were talking about it and you know what

one of the founders was like I want our people to be um what did he say prompt writers like understanding I don't I don't really like I don't like the prompt engineering thing because like I feel like I feel like that implies there's some complexity to it they're like there is a lot of complexity but like also like the whole point is you can talk to it like a human right so like just go mess with it like you know but I agree I agree like if you want people to be like actively using it in the day-to-day work but you know there's caveats so

continue yeah yeah absolutely all right last question um you've been on the show twice already so you know this is coming um we got guidance counselors in middle school high school and college but now not so much what would be your biggest piece of career advice um maybe I usually say younger self but since we've been on the show three times what would be your biggest piece of career advice maybe to Jacob two years ago yeah no I mean I think at the time previously it would be hard for me not to have said like getting involved in some kind of content production because it

should affect my life like so so measurably um so I think that's a good advice still but I would say that maybe now I would focus more on maybe learning to like this is where I'm at right now it's sort of learning to follow money like learning to figure out again maybe identifying value like we heard earlier makes sense to that year but learning learning to figure out learning how to have the nose I guess developing the nose to kind of smell out like what is actually the value of this this piece of business or this idea or this concept and then how do I

plug into that how do I become a piece of creating that value and at that point you sort of you know the idea of like trying to become indispensable is maybe a little like foolish because everyone's dispensable or expendable yeah but I get what you're saying like no but you want to get closer to that yeah and I love that I mean I think right now I mean one of the one of the big pieces of the content I've been preaching is just upward communicate like I don't think we talk enough about upward communicating and know your value like like if someone were to grab

you in the hall and go hey like Jacob Taylor like what's your Roi what are you doing right now like you should be able to Rattle that off right um you know I my my brother um my my brother I'm pulling it up real quick he he rewrote his resume and obviously he sent it to me just to look at um but I want to read some bullet points that my brother has in his resume and and I want to drive this home because one we talk about writing quantitative quantitative information on a resume but also two knowing you're knowing your Worth right so in

right here in 2022 my team's responsible for over three million dollars of annual recurring Revenue growth we grow subscriber base 250 year over year the messaging product I saw contributed to the majority of growth including a two and a half thousand user leading to a hundred percent growth at the end of 2021 right so it's like like if somebody were to grab my brother in the hallway and go hey like what have you been working on like like can you give me some numbers like he knows this stuff right and I think that's exactly what you're talking about yeah and those numbers are out there

like you can you can get them someone has them at the end of the day you know there is somebody balancing uh you know the books at your company so yeah you can seek out if you don't know you can ask like what what is this piece of the companies like maybe margin contribution or maybe revenue or however your company thinks about money like just what do we do to contribute to that line and then drawing that line to your specif ic job function and then you can like I said earlier you can work on your sales skills and you can learn to make a

pitch around how you bring that and how you deserve a percentage of that basically because you're bringing that in the door Jacob I feel like we could sit down for half a day and chop it up um and uh and I would love that but um we're out of time want to be respectful of your time at everybody else's time um so that's it for today we appreciate y'all Jacob stay on second say bye to you off air but thanks again for hanging out a lot of conversations happening in the chat I've been seeing it going the whole time so thank you all so much

um tomorrow morning uh unicorn finders 9 30 a.m Central we have a company on called Grazie they do um tip uh for hourly workers and that you get it same day um so it's a startup out of Austin they're doing some cool stuff so check out tomorrow 9 30 am Central on the Unicorn Finders on LinkedIn that's kind of where we stream everything and then Friday if you want to learn from a recruiter buy recruiters recruiters Anonymous we're going live um with a head of talent um at internal at a company so it's gonna be a good conversation so Jacob thank you my friend it's

always great to see you um y'all y'all go connect with Jacob and uh and I'm sure I'll have Jacob on here again very soon see y'all yeah