remote vs. onsite? where are we heading? w/clark sell of that conference

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Hello, hello. Thanks for listening to Guidance Counselor 2.0. Listen, I want to give you a quick rundown of what this podcast is and what you're about to get into as you listen to these episodes. We had Guidance Counselors in middle school. We had Guidance Counselors in high school, but we didn't really have Guidance Counselors in college and now as professionals, we don't really have anybody to turn to to ask a quick question to learn something about the job search or to navigate your career. And so that is what I want this podcast to be for you. I want it for it to be a tool for you to navigate the job search and your career.

So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you need to reach me, social media at T D S and T D E S S E Y N. And finally, please rate and review this in the app store because I want this to be discoverable for others so they can navigate their careers. Hope you enjoy the episode. All right. What's going on, everybody? Good morning. No one's here yet. So I'm going to still bob my head. What's wrong? I forgot to go live on take that. I'm out of practice at this point. I'm out of practice You're allowed to be it's been it's been three three weeks three weeks In three weeks since we since since we got live.

Anyways welcome everybody good morning. Say hey We'd love to hear from you. I'm back I'm back for those of you who who have not seen the announcement. I'm very excited to announce I will be heading to gun.io. You got a new job? I got a new job. Oh, hey, congrats. Hey, buddy. Thanks. I didn't even know. I know that's why we're doing this live. Oh, hey, have you been looking for a while? Uh, maybe. Have you been telling anybody about it? Really? Really? No. I haven't told many people about it. I haven't really been documented online or anything. So this is just everybody. That is absolutely fantastic, my friend.

Best of luck with that. Well, yeah, no, I'm excited. And we're excited to start today. Today's a new journey. So I'm out of the staffing world. And I'm in the engineering world now, which is really, really been something that I want to do. Shout out to Clark. And really, really what made me realize this is going to conferences, right? So as a recruiter in the staffing industry, over the last few years, I've just, I've been accepted with open arms and engineering community and there's just this level of innovation and different type of thinking with when it comes to engineers and it was It really resonated with me.

So so when I was on the job search for me It was it was it was paramount to get into the engineering space So gun.io for those of you who do not know about gun.io. I'm gonna learn more and I may quote this wrong and I may come back myself originally the platform was built for freelancers in part-time folks. And it still is, right? You can get on it. I believe it's a Slack channel. I'm not in it yet. I'll be in it probably today. Where you go in, you can set your rate and we post jobs. And then also one of the reasons why I wanted to join gun.io is because they essentially built a product that I was trying to build at Beiko, which was a real-time inventory of all the engineers we have on tap, you could say.

And what's really cool is our engineers are vetted by our own engineers. So the unofficial title is I say it's engineers, by engineers, for engineers. So I'm gonna probably start using that. So anyways. You know, it's like I've said that conference is for developers, by developers. There you go. Look at that. I love that. So today for everybody to name, it's good to see y'all. I'm out of practice, so bear with me here. First off, comment, say, hey, this is a networking platform. I've had a few DMs. Is Guidance Counselor 2.0 going away? No, more than anything, it's gonna be more stuff. So, cause that's part of my job now.

So Guidance Counselor 2.0 is not going anywhere. We are still gonna keep at this thing for a bit. So please say, hey, unless we're tuning in from, this is a networking platform. There's a lot of people who connect, who have found mentors, mentees, new jobs of it. So say, hey, second off, ask questions. Clark is awesome. Clark is a friend, but Clark also has a ton of experience. We're gonna talk about some good stuff today. So if you have questions, please ask. And then finally, I want to give a shout out to Clark and that conference, the official coffee sponsor of Guidance Councilor 2.0. It's actually the Connect the HUB mug.

Do you have mugs, Clark? Can I give a hug? I got you, baby. Hell yeah. So that conference next week was constant. If you're not there, you're lame. I'm just kidding, but would love to see you. I'm one of the keynotes. I'm very blessed to be a keynote. very first keynote, Clark gave me a chance, so I'm forever grateful for him, but also two Clark runs are great. Family friendly type of conference, you know, bring the wife, bring the kids. It's actually really cool. When I say it's actually really cool, I mean what Clark is building and I'm going to brag on Clark for a second.

What Clark is building is very different than most tech, almost every tech conference I've been to. Clark has a focus on creating a family family friendly environment. You can introduce your kids to tech stuff if if you want to get them in tech early on. And I'm in Clark, I'm just going to tell you probably some of the best food of any conference, at least in Austin, at least in Austin, Mac and cheese in Austin slap. So, sorry, anyways, y'all check it out that conference. And if you do want a few bucks off your coffee beans, they are really good. Believe it or not, I promise they're not burnt beans.

They're really good way to understand. No, they're not. I don't see that shit. It's not weird. You have some of the best smelling beans I've ever smelled before. No, they're just fresh. They're so good. It's so good. Yeah. any coffee snobs out there? Cause I'm not going to do big batches. Like I'm going to pick up another batch uh, Wednesday before we head out to TC and probably bring any half yet though, Clark. Yeah, I don't know. De-cap. I can't do decaf because I know how to make decaf. I don't I can't mentally like get down with how they strip caffeine out. Come on. It's not good for your hair.

We'll go brown. You know what that I don't want that. I'm getting the died. If you want decaf brand new cut and I'm getting and it died right before that conference. So if you want to get just drink water. I love it. I love it. I love it. All right. Cool. One of your shots people calling our guy. What's going on mean team. Yeah, you're back. I am a Neil. It's great to see you. Kevin's good to see your Ricardo Brayden. What's going on? Michelle Lambert, Brayden Scott. Becky. What's going on? LinkedIn user. Happy Monday. So glad Italy. Yes, I leave in 30 days to Italy.

So many people like, I want to start, I want to do this whole new job and take a vacation thing. So we already had it planned. So anyways, Jordan, it's good to see you. Thank you so much. Nick, Michael, we got the crew out today. Congrats who had the gun.io and the betting pool. I love it. Derek, it's good to see you. Elliot, let's see here from different Deep South and love it. Howdy Clark, LinkedIn user. Alex, great to see you. Somebody says mug me, bro. LinkedIn user, who are you? I see here. Braden's got a question we'll get to here in a second. Another from KC, I love it, Randolph.

We got the crew today, Matt. Let's see here, if you want decaf, just drink water. Yeah, exactly. That is a quote right there. Chris, it's great to see you as well. All right, Clark. Whoa, oh, Ian, it's good to see you, buddy. All right, Clark, who are you, man? Just give the people a quick background real quick. Just dude, Clark, run the conference, founded a conference, write some code, run a couple of companies. Dad, husband, dude. I love it. I love coffee, coffee, coffee fanatic. Coffee, barbecue fanatic. What's one of the best barbecue you've had recently? I'm kind of curious. We gotta get the big high-hating questions out of the way first.

So for those that are in the upper Midwest. What's the upper Midwest? I would go like Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, kind of that. That tri-state area, can you say that? I experienced my first rib fest. So, rib, rib. Yes, I did this over the weekend. We went to rib fest in Elkhorn, Wisconsin. And I was disappointed. I was. And it's, I'm the, rib fest, you ribs are like my favorites. Look, I'm not a person who does well with compliments by any stretch. I'll admit that. We went with a couple of friends. And essentially this is like County Fair and it's nothing but like barbecue joints. And you know, winner, you ever been to a place that's like world's best burger?

And you're like, how did you claim that shit, right? Like world's best coffee. So yeah, so we did the like buy from a bunch of vendors and when others are like, no yours is better. I'm like, oh, okay. So I've been spoiled by just being the Texas too much. Yeah. And that's the reality. Texas and Kansas City, I do have to say, are pretty good. For those of you who are watching and are barbecue fans, I'm kind of curious, let me know where your favorite barbecue places. I'm just kind of curious, does a rib place in Mankato, Minnesota too? I imagine they're all over, but just FYI, I love rib fest.

Yeah, I'm sure there's a rib fest everywhere. I'm sure. I'm sure. It was just interesting. Like, you all can talk about like career stuff today. You all just got to talk about talking ribs all day. I mean, come on. All right, so Clark and I were texting. Clark's been such a, such a huge advocate for me. And, you know, it's, to be honest with y'all, like there's some stuff that's gone down in full transparency that I haven't quite shared online. And Clark's been there for all of it. And Clark and I were texting about recently my new job. And one of the reasons why I actually I took this new job was because they're local and You know, I know that I'm kind of the remote first guy and I always preach remote first and One of the reasons I accepted this job with gun is because they're in my backyard Right, I'm actually going into the office today to do some just some hangouts and some meet some people So I told Clark I said I feel kind of weird because I've been kind of preaching the the the touting the fully remote Flag for a bit and then Clark had some thoughts of Clark.

If you want to kick it off man and just I don't know Just just kick it off with some thoughts. Yeah, I mean Look I'm sitting in my house 500 square foot office You know, there's four desks in here a conference table a whiteboard a TV I worked remote since remote since 2006 for Microsoft, for a company out of Bulgaria, for a company out of Boston, now our own two companies. The pendulum is swinging a little bit too hard, where everybody's like, I don't need people. And I'm a huge proponent of, there's a balance somewhere in life of being able to see your tribe and your team and get shit done versus when you need to do kind of deep work and not be bothered.

Yeah. It's really, even when I was working, you know, for the crew in Bulgaria, I still was over there for six times a year. Like that's every couple of months. But this, like, I can do my job from home. I had to put some context around that kind of stuff and see what's missing or what could be better. I am curious from and especially what you're seeing on the conference side too. I do feel like there is a little bit more. For those of you who are watching, I know we're still talking about ribs and barbecue and chat. I absolutely love it. Maybe we just need a barbecue themed chat here.

Let's get, let's get chat. Well, it's funny because, you know, my ice hockey team sponsored by Martin's barbecue. So, so that's kind of cool. We're, yeah. But what have you seen, man? I mean, you know, getting people back in. I mean, I'm excited for that conference, not just because you're on the call with me, but just in general, you know, such a great vibe. What are you seeing, you know, because are you seeing any difference of enthusiasm, even from January from Austin to now in July for Wisconsin? So I see if I'm going to answer that in two parts. I'm seeing, you know, COVID stopped everybody.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And so we all had the work remote, if you will. And all have to, but we did. Yep. And so there were a lot of people who took advantage of the system. And I think that's left a pretty bad taste in people's mouths. I think at the same breath, you're seeing that a lot of processes and how people do work got exposed. It's one thing to be a remote employee with an entire remote staff who knows how to be remote. Right. like the half is in the office or most is in one town and not in the other. Right. And so I think the workspace and managerial people and I think it just got exposed, right?

And where's a bit of a transitioning tide? Now I'll dovetail that into the excitement of you know, TC and yeah, the excitement is far greater. This will be our fifth event since COVID started and it's far higher than it's ever been in the past few years. Having said that because of the shit that's going on with tech companies or companies in general laying off in this and that, you know, attendance is down, budgets are gone, morale is low, people are lonely. Like, so there's this really weird, like, dichotomy between things of like, everybody's super pumped to go, I mean, I've been to five events. I have seen thousands of people, it's kids are in sports, whatnot.

I forget that some people have not been to a conference in years. I also forget that there are people who have never been to a conference ever, because their first time getting into the workforce may have been 2019. Maybe they didn't get to go, the world got locked down. So that's four years. Like, can you imagine? Like, when I was in big corporate, like I was switching jobs every four years. So it's kind of a weird place where we're at right now where you've got somebody like you and I who have been out there and others who are kind of afraid of losing their job and policies are changing and whatnot.

So, yeah. What's a weird time? Yeah, it is. Where do you think we're heading, man? I mean, I mean, do, you know, and again, there's no wrong answers here. And I'm kind of curious for those of you who are still watching, comment, kind of see what you're seeing. I mean, ultimately, you know, I'm starting to see, you know, regional base, hey, listen, if you're in the southeast and get here within three hours, ideal, you know, I don't know, where do you think we're ahead and moving forward? And again, hot takes welcome. I don't think I don't think that anybody really knows. Um, I would say money is expensive right now.

So, you know, people are pulling back, which changes budget, which changes, you know, staffing and because people were, um, not everybody was necessarily working as hard as they should have been or whatever. You know, now you've got a management staff who's like, trying to to readjust and figure out what's the right thing. And so I think there's gonna be a little bit of like, can people come in? What does it make sense? Yeah. I mean, this isn't about politics, but then you're gonna have, I think you have this perfect storm of there'll be a new political regime. What does that mean for money and the cost of money and where people will invest?

Yeah. If people continue to claim that they can they have no reason to to go into the office, I think I think that's a that's a that's gonna there's gonna need to be some give and takes on both sides, right? I don't think five days in office is necessarily the right answer by any stretch, but to say that you don't need to go meet your tribe and work together and there's things that you can't do better together is also wrong too. You know, it's interesting. I I want to go back. I want to talk about networking for a sec and especially, you know, with that conference coming up and and you know, I would say there's kind of a Some conferences coming up in general the next few weeks few months You know one of the things that I've been fascinated with and actually Brandon who you know who shoots my content.

He asked me He goes where where are your leads come from? And I kind of went through like the 10 kind of major leads I had all of them Yeah. And meetups and, well, for me conferences, all of them. Now, now you could say that the content is helped, right? It's helped. And I think, and you and I've talked about this countless times, this is where I kind of want to go to about leveraging the, leveraging the online for the in person. Yep. But all, I had about 10 really major leads that I was chasing down during my job search. All 10 were solidified through conferences.

So I want to hear your thoughts on that. Yeah, like exactly. Like I don't know, people seem to forget that we're human and we need individuals and people. And so they've de-emphasized, they've made it that you can do everything, you could do anything you can do in person but online. And the reality is you can't. But the reality is you need both. And I think that that's fine. And you just have to leverage them both. Look, online is scale. You can meet mass people at scale. Talk about that. Talk about scale. Cause people are like, what does that mean? Well, I mean, look, you can throw out a tweet or a, whatever they're called these days.

I don't even know where we're at anymore. A thread. Yeah, seriously. Yeah. Yes, it's like you can meet so many more people faster with smaller, with less effort. And then when you're at places, you can cement those relationships because, you know, great thousands of people follow me, follow you. How do people know your kid's name or where you live or your last name for Christ's sakes? Like, I mean, it's the, you know, don't confuse the vanity with like depth of like actual people doing things, helping one another support group. Who's gonna get your next connection? I mean, you just got a job. And how much of that was through networking through others?

All of it. Well, literally I got the job. And so when I was, when me and Vaco decided to move on, I hit up a buddy of mine, his name's Hunter Mitchum. He works locally in Nashville. For those of you who are in Nashville, you probably know him, especially if you're an engineer. And he's like, I would say he's like one of the, it's like it was me, Hunter, and another guy named Jeff in Nashville as kind of like the head, engineer, and recruiters. And I went to coffee with him. And I was like, I was like, this isn't gonna go anywhere. Like he's a recruiter.

like, but in my, but here's the deal cart. And this one trying to get across everybody. In my mind, I was like, I'm a recruiter, was a recruiter, he's a recruiter. He's not gonna be able to help me because I'm not an engineer. And I got the job because of it. And so I think that's where I'm so big and I know you're big on this too. Just one conversation can transfer. You're one thing away. You're always one thing away. Yeah. And I fear that too many people won't put in an effort or the time, you know, to really like solidify relationship. I mean, you and I met over Twitter through an introduction through somebody else.

And then, yep. And then conversations, phone calls, meeting a person, text messages, I mean, we talk, what, every week now? I mean, there's at least some silly shit that gets sent back and forth, but I don't know that people really kind of grasp the level of things that really happen. Yeah. Or that they're not investing in themselves, right? Like your job, this will be interesting too. Okay. AI is on us right now. In a going away, it's gonna change the way we work. So what does that mean for you, the individual? Where are you going to adapt to that in your working lifestyle in your thing?

What does that mean? Because ultimately, right? We hire ones for their big brains in their analytical decisions to do this stuff. So that means collaborating with others. That means doing the things that you need to do and how many people have you talked to that don't have a webcam that's of any decent or good internet connection. I'll call on that for a second. So I wasn't talking to you about this, I don't think. Maybe I was, I don't know, I don't think it was. It's like the importance of your virtual presentation. Yeah. It's you. Please, like, I will just go on this quick little rant here.

Here we go, Clark rant. You ain't buying a suit. You're in the top 10% of earners. So like go buy a good mic in a camera if you don't want to go to the office. Make it easy for the other person to communicate with you in a way that facilitates it. Yes, I live in a country. We still pay for the best internet possible with phone backups and all of that so that we can be made accessible at all costs so that we can do our job. correct. What do I got a couple grand into a noise gate because I got kids that are over there screaming and yelling and a dog that's barking and your audio sounds really good though by the way.

I did but I'm wearing a t-shirt and not a suit. Right. So I bought one suit that I use every day versus right right. Yep. What it's it's it's so big. If if you need help on what to buy I can send you what I have it's not expensive, I have a $200 4K webcam. This entire setup was only a few hundred bucks, but you can even go cheaper with the Yeti Pro that that USB my can plug it in, just go. Yeah, I mean invest in yourself, right? Yep. Yep. Absolutely. Like I said, I'm I'm in a different place, right? I've got an office for desks, you know, but we made an active decision and said, Okay, if this is how we're going to do it.

When people come to the house, like we have a place that we collaborate and we can do a thing. So when we're online, like, let's do the good shit, right? I want you to be able to see this beautiful, epic hot mess of, you know, what it is. So brain comes in here and brain do that beard is just righteous, man. That is just an epic, epic, red beard. I got a question on my first technical interview tomorrow. Congrats man, hella nervous, but also excited. What are your thoughts? What are some things I can do is stand down and not spew out word vomit and freeze up.

It is for a paid internship position. That's awesome. I'm a big fan of internships. I think more coverage should do internships. So I'm assuming they're expecting me not to know absolutely everything. I will tell you this, Braden, actually Clark, you go first. You're the guest. You know, I've been on this hype recently about like how to take advantage of conferences and networking and all that. I'm just going to say conversational questioning. So good. So if somebody asks you like where you're from, don't just be like, spring girl of Illinois. That's it. Because then the other person doesn't have a thread to pull on to go somewhere, right?

This is key. I wish we got here earlier, but we did, but that's okay. So I've got all the time in the world, baby. So I know I got to tell you. Oh, just because you've got a new job. I got a new job. I got a 10 a.m. of my founder. Yeah, just give somebody a little bit more that they can pull on so that you can have a conversation. It opens yourself up to be a little bit vulnerable. It gives them a reason to love like you more than the, you know, rigid kind of answer. And then that's how you get to know people.

Yeah, Clark makes a good point, Braden. So like what I would do, so if you were asking like where you're from and I would say, or where you live, I'd say Nashville, but what I would say is like, well actually I moved here to Nashville for music, 2011. from South Carolina, I went to the University of South Carolina, right? So like right there, if somebody grew up in the Southeast, maybe somebody would maybe live in South Carolina, maybe somebody loves music, right? And it gives them more. And I'm really big on this. If you can try to transform it's storytelling. Again, it's this whole storytelling thing.

If you can take an interview and make it conversational instead of, Hey, can you answer X question with Y answer? Hey, Z question with A answer, but. But in your example, you gave them, I went to college, I went to this college, I lived in North Carolina, I like music, I now live in Nashville. I moved here for here. So now you can go, well, why did you do that? What other hobbies do you have, XY? Oh, I know somebody in that went to UNC or. Yeah, yeah, I love that. Also, I think too, Braden, I'll tell you this. And if you've watched any amount of podcasts on the show, I've had so many engineering leaders come on.

They don't expect even senior engineers to know everything. Right? So this whole thing, honestly, especially what I've seen with junior devs is most engineering leaders just want junior devs to say, hey, I don't know, but I'm going to find out. Exactly. So my interview, and this is case when I was at said giant shop to, was I just want to know how you're going to go figure out the answer because you're not going to know. Can you figure it out faster than the next person that we put you in front of to do a thing or whatever. How do I know that your decision making criteria, if left to go do your thing, will yield you a net positive example and maybe you will not get so emotionally tied to it if you're wrong that you can adjust instead of stand on your podium and be like, nope, this is the right answer knowing that there's like 16 answers for the same damn thing.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Be open and honestly break. You got nothing to lose, man. I'm going to honest with you, it's your first job. And I understand your probably like, well, it's my first job. I have more to lose. You don't, you know, it's a conversation. Just be yourself, man. Just be your for as many people that are getting fired. There's equally, if not more jobs that are open. Everybody thinks the tech market is like shrinking, but this shit happens like every few years, five years. There's a bloke's gone. Like it like the float is gone. Like you can't sleepwalk through an interview anymore, but you can still get it.

Yeah. You don't get a job. There's plenty and there's plenty of work out there. Plenty like like on gun.io. You can use our platform or go or go visit one of our sponsors that's at a conference. It's like to hire somebody because guaranteed 25 30 40% of the sponsors that are at a conference are doing what? Trying to find somebody who's actually stepping outside of themselves to be an actual, you know, asset to their company. All right. We got to wrap up here. Clark you and your new job look I'm so busy like shut up Two last two questions always ask first off is there any tech tools Technologies trends that you are trying to tinkle with right now frameworks languages I Mean I'm all over the place, but I'm You say anything fun recently in production.

I'll tell you I'll How about this okay? I mean For the engineers out there, I'm hella into Sfelt, but what will surprise people is that I use AI every day. And not mostly for writing and communication. So you have tried to adapt and try to work it into your workflow? It is 1000% between chat, GPT, Grammarly, a few other things, some video this, that 1000% gets used all day long. with that. Just to unblock me and double check, right? We all remember when that little red squiggly line came out and we were like, oh, I fat fingered that. Mm hmm. Why $10 a month so I can have somebody make sure that I don't look like a complete buffoon.

I'll spend that all day long. Deal. Last question. I know we've had you on the show what? Is this your third time? I think so. It's not too many third timers. Oh, let's go baby. Let's get four. Just because I don't remember what you said the last two times, what is your biggest piece of career advice to your younger self or just the people in general right now? That doesn't necessarily have to be for younger self. You can be your general career advice too. I guess don't be afraid to change. You know, you don't, you don't, just because you like JavaScript today or, well here, like you were a recruiter and now you're like in engineering, I think people feel you're going to work a long, long time.

So learn things that build on one another, try new things, don't stop learning because it's okay to change. It's okay to say, hey, look, I don't like security anymore. Now you have to be patient with that. But I started off as a really crappy tester and was in engineering and then was an architecture and then I did some advocacy and I made product. Now I own a company. I still do engineering like, yeah. It's all right. You got 40 years. Yeah. You got time. Don't stop. Don't stop learning. Don't stop believing. All right. Stop. There you go. You think. All right, y'all. Well, thanks again for hanging out with us today.

We appreciate it. First one, that guidance comes to 2.0. Go, Keck with Clark. Go to that conference next week tomorrow in Texas or Texas. I have my guy who's also going to be. I'm pretty sure that conference next week, Chris DeMars. Chris DeMars is going to be on the show tomorrow. So I'll see you all tomorrow at 930 a.m. Central. Clark, thank you my friends. They'll know a quick second, say about you. Hold on. But I want to say thank you to you. Congrats on a new job. But also thank you for sharing your journey in it because I think for a lot of others, we often look at somebody and go, oh, there's, here's a person who's like, got a shit together, not that you don't have your shit together.

But you shared like, hey, like this is scary. And that takes a lot of courage to quote Tim Cook. Thanks, man. I appreciate it. All right, y'all have a good one. Peace. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode, and I am very grateful, because you know why? There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes, and I myself rarely finished an entire episode. So I appreciate you so, so much for listening. Quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the App Store, I want this to be discoverable to others. And the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it, please, like right now, unless you're driving, then don't do it.

So thank you again, if you need to reach out to me at Tdastin on all social media handles. And I hope you have a fantastic day.