is devrel going away w/ tracy lee, ceo of this dot labs

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Hello, hello. Thanks for listening to Guidance Counselor 2.0. Listen, I want to give you a quick rundown of what this podcast is and what you're about to get into as you listen to these episodes. We had Guidance Counselors in middle school. We had Guidance Counselors in high school, but we didn't really have Guidance Counselors in college and now as professionals, we don't really have anybody to turn to to ask a quick question to learn something about the job search or to navigate your career. And so that is what I want this podcast to be for you. I want it for it to be a tool for you to navigate the job search and your career.

So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you need to reach me, social media at tdsntdesseyn. And finally, please rate and review this in the app store because I want this to be discoverable for others so they can navigate their careers. Hope you enjoy the episode. All right. All right. What's going on everybody? I just sounded like I was like announcing like a wrestling match. Welcome to the ring. It's great to see all this morning. When I say y'all, I mean, nobody, because it takes a few minutes to kind of get this into the interwebs yet. But for those of you who eventually see this, good morning, it's great to see y'all.

I am back from Atlanta. We spoke at Atlanta Developer Conference this weekend with the great, Kelly Vaughn, it was a great conversation. We'll be at Connect Tech for that as well, speaking on that. It was a blast. It's more like a stand up comedy show, but it was a lot of fun. And so for those of you who I met down at Atlanta, it was great to meet you. Excited for this morning. First off, because it's Monday and the sun is shining, but also too, I could hang out with Tracy. So I've known Tracy. Tracy's been in that orbit for a very, very long time.

I've ran into her a bunch of times. And so I'm excited to get her on the pod this morning, but please feel free to comment, say, hey, let us know we're tuning in from again. The reason why I tell people to comment, to say, hey, is so you can network, right? you know, what I've realized with this show is that this is a place where what I want for the show is, is this a place where people can come together, say, Hey, connect to each other, DM each other, and then go on without their day. It's also a place where you can learn from some of the best and brightest engineers across the country and ask questions.

So that's the next thing. Please ask questions because Tracy is amazing and she won't bill you for it today. So take advantage of that. The second thing is, I want to keep doing this more, because I do feel like we don't celebrate ourselves enough. If you have something to celebrate, you got to raise, you got to promotion, a title change, you deployed code on a Friday, you didn't burn the house down, like please celebrate yourself. Throw it up in the comments, I would love to celebrate you. If you feel weird celebrating yourself, which you shouldn't, but if you do and you want to give someone else a shout out, please do so in the comments, because I do feel like in today's career, we're always on for the next thing, right?

Hey, we got the raise. When's the next razor? We got the promotion. What's the next promotion? So please, please give yourself props. I would love to celebrate you. Also, final thing. Want to give a shout out to that conference, the official coffee sponsor of Guidance Councilor 2.0. It's the only conference I know with a coffee with coffee beans. It's great. Check it out. It's fantastic. And then want to give a shout out to people tuning in this morning. Chris, Eugene, Brett, Mark, Ryan, Lambert. Good to see you, Alex Brady, what's going on? Scott, Ritu, David, Anthony, Stu. It's great to see you all this morning.

All right, Tracy, enough of me, right in the mouth. Let's give the people what they want. Who are you? What do you do? And we'll go from there. Yes, well, I'm Tracy. You can follow me on Twitter at Lady Leat. I see a lot of people from LinkedIn, so you can find me on LinkedIn. I think my URL is Tracy S. Lee. But I'm the co-founder of a company called this.labs. I've been doing this for almost eight years now. Love JavaScript and love just hanging out and doing things. So we're a consultancy of about 50 developers and we're 100% remote and worldwide. So if you're looking for a new position, feel free to DM me.

We are looking for like lead engineers and architects right now. Um, and uh, yeah, I don't know. Fun excited to be here. I'm running a dev world book. Well, there was like a lot of stuff going on. So I like, you're busy just like you. Yeah. You're always busy. You're always busy, which is why I'm glad you got to on the show. Um, so let's go dive in. I mean, first off, so we're going to talk about kind of a few things this morning. Um, and again, we don't prep. I just kind of asked the guests where they passionate about. So sometimes it's kind of a hodgepodge.

So first thing I want to talk about Tracy, let's talk about what makes a good engineer, right? I think a lot of people here, you know, could are obviously range in their skill sets and where they're at in their career. And I think what makes a good engineer is kind of a very open-ended question. And also very subjective, which makes it a lot of fun. So. Because I would love to hear in the comments. Yes. Right? What makes a good engineer? Because, you know, putting words around that is difficult, right? It's like, you know, you talk to most engineers. It's like, when you know, you know.

Yeah. Like, okay, well, yeah, we know, of course. Exactly. So, so, yeah. So for you, Tracy, what makes a good engineer? I think it's, you know, I, you know, because I have a hard time. I've been thinking about this a lot because, you know, as a, as a consultancy, right? Like how do you differentiate yourself, right? Like, well, we just care. And I think engineers who are truly good, like actually care about their work, right? It's like, you're not there to collect a paycheck. I mean, everybody's there and should be collecting a paycheck. But you're not just there to kind of clock in and clock out.

You're there because you truly believe you can make an impact. You can make a difference on the code base on the business. I think there is a, like, for some reason, a lot of engineering organizations. I think whether it be from a culture perspective or some other reason, there's like a disconnect between how engineers feel about business. Or like, oh, I'm just doing business. And I had a really good conversation with Victor Sapkin on Friday about engineering leadership generally. It's a series that I do on the desktop blog. But he's like, no, you know, engineers should understand what the business is trying to get them to do, right?

I think it's harder in a larger organization, of course, to be able to truly understand that. But I think if you can do that, then you have more, you have a reason to show up at work. Sure. If you know your ticket is actually doing something, a ticket or the sprint you're working on actually matters because you know, it should and it does. And you truly understand that, then you know, hopefully you get more excited about your work. Is it something, and Dom, it's good to see you buddy. Right. So is it common and again, for those of you who are tuning in, we're talking about what makes a good engineer, please comment in the comments in your opinion what makes a good engineer.

Hot takes welcome. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hot takes. Hot takes on this Monday is encouraged. So is it common that a lot of engineers just don't know what they're doing down street? Like how it affects things downstream? Is that kind of common, unfortunately? I think sometimes, I think sometimes there is a disconnect. Like, okay, I'm working on this or like, well, why does this refactor, you know, well, actually, when do we ever get time for refactor? But like, why does this matter? Oh my gosh, I'm changing this button for the 10 millionth time. Like, why does this matter? Or like, why am I doing this initiative?

You know, or, you know, it can kind of just seem like a sludge, which I think is like, at at least for me, like, difficult. You know, like, it's like, why am I doing this? Like, I want purpose in my life. I want, I want to be able to know I can do something, right? And I think the more you help engineers understand that or, you know, engineering leadership understands that generally and correlate that to business value, the more empowered I feel like we can become and feel, right? 100%. Who's responsibility is it to let developers know how they're, how, what they're doing next downstream.

I think engineering leadership. Okay. And that's, that's like, I guess that's, you know, it's also asking like, what's a good engineering leader, right? Like how do you as a CTO help, you know, every single developer on your team understand like what's the type of culture you're building? You know, are you building, are you building like an organization where it's like, Oh yeah, the developers are just doing this stuff over here. They're just doing what they're supposed to. Like they're almost like, you know, worker bees or whatever, like hair versus like, oh my gosh, developers are enabling our organization. We're working with them hand in hand to like, make our organization successful.

And obviously it's way more empowering. You know, it's just kind of like any, any like, organization and again, it's funny because I too talk to a lot of engineering organizations. I was just talking to Jeff Hampton, who used to be Doctor of Engineering at Roblox. And he's like, the people who keep the lights on, how can you ignore them? How can you not put value in those people who are literally the ones, the people on call, right? Like the DevOps developers. Like they're not there three in the morning. What are you gonna do? But you treat them like they're just basement people. You're like, a good people.

Right. I mean, that's kind of like a fig, right? Like, or IT, like, okay, look, your computer doesn't work. They fixed your computer. Like, you should probably have more value in them than, you know, I think what we see in a lot of organizations of like, oh, yeah. Yeah. Those are just people that do stuff and like, we're doing the important stuff because we're business. Right. Like, no. Right. Well, it's interesting. I got a comment on TikToks. Yeah. My company seemed to be way better. Joshua Morris. My company seemed to be way more way better at communicating roadmap pre IPO. I joined right after IPO.

Unfortunately, I'd off the job of an engineer to get it. Yeah. So again, I mean, he's just saying like, it's just curious. And I could see that right pre IPO, you know, post IPO. I'm sure I do it. It went crazy in your organization. And it's probably hard to, it takes more intentionality, right? It takes more intentionality after an IPO. So Josh, but thanks for thanks for coming. There's, I have a bunch of people commenting now about what makes a good engineers. I want to get these real quick. Yeah. Let's see here. First, I want to get a shout to Ryan. Ryan said to kick off celebration mess.

I wrapped up one of my harder tickets before a long break. I'm proud of you Ryan. And last time, Lambert comes in and goes, efficiently managing time and priority test to meet project deadlines. Yeah, I think, I think managing time, I think, I think is, is, is a amazing life skill in general. Let's see here, Schuster comes in here. It's good to see you buddy. I like engineers who communicate also their needs in progress clearly and work to build empathy with others on your team, also someone who's invested in others on their team. Love that. I think good communication skills are needed to be a great engineer to complete my last ticket.

I had to work across the team to explain what I was working on. Kind of along the same veins, what Tracy and I were just talking about. Mission driven educator at heart steward would be qualities I look for in engineers when I'm interviewing for roles at a company. I love that. And then Nick comes It's good to see you Nick for good engineer technical chops for sure But communications key has you become more experienced understanding more more bigger picture empathy as well? No one likes an asshole. I love it Thoughts on all that Tracy. Yeah, I mean I it's it's funny that communication, you know Like so it's like everybody's saying communication and you know what I find really interesting is that you know I spent a lot of you know the beginning is of my career like pairing with senior developers and I have People who I've paired with that make me feel you know when I'm pairing with them like oh my gosh I can do this, you know, I leave that call and I'm so energized because you know, they they they Helped enable me to do it right like they don't touch my keyboard They can just explain through what I'm supposed to be doing and I just feel empowered Yeah versus like some engineers, you know, they're like trying and you know, they want to say something but they're like, just give me your keyboard.

You know, and they're like, yeah. And then you do this and you do this. And I'm like, dude, I still don't understand what you're saying. So I think as you grow in your engineering career, being able to explain things to junior engineers, or your peers, or business, or whatever it is, is a skill that you really need to hone in on. Just like, basically everybody said, a good engineer is a good communicator. If you can explain what you're doing, I mean, all the more power to you. And that makes you really successful. Well, and there's still comments coming in about communication. Yeah, I mean, it's huge for sure.

So I want to get to the next topic here. So about DevRel is DevRel going away. So I know Dom popped in and this is something that's kind of been on my mind too, because obviously, Tracy and I have somewhat similar friends and we see the layoffs happening. Tracy, let's start off with your thought around this and then let's Let's get into one of your products that you're releasing. Yeah, sure. Melissa, is DevRel going away? I think it's a very frustrating topic. Whether it's our circles and it's happening to everybody, or it seems disproportionate in the development industry, it does seem like a lot of DevRel is being laid off these days.

And I think one of the big topics of DevRelCon is like, well, what are the metrics? what's the value constantly here, these conversations. You know, I'm writing a book on DevRel and interviewing a lot of people, right? Like I'm actually surprised, or maybe I shouldn't be surprised, that you know, most people are still trying to figure out metrics. So I think like, you know, I just got off the phone with Phil Leggeter and he was just at DevRelCon and it's like, it's so unsatisfying to see things happen in the industry. I think DevRel generally, right? like it's a very long, you need to be able to want to invest.

It's like you're not gonna see the results one or two years later potentially, right? It's just hard for coming, I mean, when I interviewed the gun, I mean, that's what I told them, I said, you gotta give me at least a year, at least a year. Yes, and that's very hard for a business, especially in this economy, right? Everybody wants to see value now. But then it's so hard, because you think about it, it's like, oh my God, so many companies They're just killing themselves because sure fine sales can sell in. And us as engineers, it's like, well, this product is absolute crap, but you bought a three-year license, so we're stuck with it.

Somebody else was saying that they were talking to Dabro people and the question wasn't, sorry, it wasn't Dabro, they were talking to business people, building developer tooling. The question wasn't, how do I get a developer to evangelize my product? It's how do I get a developer to not say no to my product? And that's such a low bar if you think about it, right? All you're trying to optimize for is, please just don't say my product sucks and kick me out of the organization. Just get it good enough to where you're not saying no. That's depressing, isn't it? Yeah, it's not great. Right, but like that's, I think the problem is, you know, again, the sales cycle, right?

It's like, okay, you can sell in and then you don't know your product is actually dead because you're seeing all the sales growth until, you know, percolates through the community how it's absolute crap. And then three years later, you realize that your product has actually been dead for the past three years. But if you had started with DevRel first and built that community, then, you know, you're all of a sudden getting the retention. And again, it's like, okay, you don't see it again until, you know, one to three years down the road or the effects of that. Right. Yeah. I mean, I don't think, you know, I don't think DevRel is going away.

I think DevRel right now is getting asked because it's very short-sighted among businesses. Right. Yeah. And I do feel like one of the things that I think individuals need to do, and this is kind of just off the back of me interviewing recently was what can you bring the value like what can you drive to the company value wise? Yes. Right. And I think and maybe I don't know I'm sure it's your thoughts. Is it a little bit of not laziness on DevRel but but maybe a little bit of lack of intentionality because you know our is is DevRel groups providing that type of metrics like, hey, we did this, this and this.

Like, are there cons, because like for me, it's like constant check-ins monthly. Like maybe that would help. I don't know. I'm just, I think there's, there's gotta be a breakdown somewhere between. I think it's, yeah, I think it's difficult because you know, you think about DevRel right now and so many people who have come into the industry, right? And it's like, because so many people come into the industry, you have junior, mid-level, senior, DevRel people, right? And, you know, we would never ask a junior engineer to go talk to the C-suite and justify their job or create metrics around why their work is valuable. But, you know, companies are just hiring like, you know, a mid-level dove role person, a junior dove role person and saying, hey, do all this work, not only hey, do all this work of five people, but also now talk to C-suite and justify your job, it's crazy, it's a crazy ask, right?

So I think that's the problem, the way dove role generally is structured, But I also think it's like, you know, the question of metrics, you know, if you put the metrics in place that business wants to see, which is the short-term metrics, they want to know what's happening this month. And, you know, and you're held accountable to those metrics. Are those metrics actually good for DevRel? Are they just going to actually prove to business like, no, you're not a value? Because again, you talk about it, you know, you told your company, give me a year, give me, you know, two years, whatever it is to truly see the value.

what metrics are you holding yourself accountable for? What metrics actually say, I'm doing a good job today? Yeah, I mean, I'll answer that. I mean, for me, one of the things is, I have two metrics in place, kind of for me, like bottom line. How many developers am I driving to the gun.io platform a week? And then how many clients am I bringing in a month? Right? So last month, I brought in 32 developers, senior engineers to the gun platform, right? That's pretty good. What I wanted to be at is 10 a week, so a little under, and then I brought in two clients to the platform, right?

Which actually is exactly, I want to bring in two a month. Now, whether they close or not, that's on the sales side, but if I'm bringing in at least two net new clients a month, then that's good. So those are my metrics that I hold myself to. What do you think about a dev role? Like, let's say, I mean, you're a special. Sure. Special snowflake. But like you think about like, you know, Dominic who was on here, right? Who, you know, who worked with him in the general capacity before. It's like, well Dominic, would you be okay with that? Like saying like, I'm gonna bring in 50 new developers to the platform.

Can you actually, can you have metrics that actually are that closely tied to your job? Yeah. Usually most of our people I would say is no, like you can't. Sure, sure. So what do you do? Yeah. And I'm working with my dev team to even create a report for some other things too, right? So again, that's a special snowflake that you are. You understand reporting how as a person with two years experience, it's not like they teach you like, oh, with everyone, you also have to understand reporting. Right, because I grew up in a sales organization on the recruiting side, right? So like I come from like, hi, hi, metric, you know.

Yes. which you know, we were probably learned from you. But a lot of several people, right? Like these metrics and these reports you're talking about are like, no, no, no, no. We don't do that. So I don't know what the right answer is. It's kind of unsatisfying, you know? It's like a lot topic right now. It is. It is. Rizelle also congrats on the new job girl. Holy smokes, gonna go work. Yay. That's awesome. So congrats, girl. Congrats. Let's see here. So Schuster comes in here again, long and innovative bets, DevRel platform engineering, productivity engineering, DevTools are easier to invest in Bull Market. Yeah, I mean, yeah.

And I do think that I think probably started next year. I think we're going to probably start seeing DevRel probably come back and vote again. Ooh, you're predicting market next year? Yeah, I think so. So my take is, I think the rest of the year is trash. I think probably creeping into January, February, next year, it's still not going to be great. And I think we're going to start seeing the corner probably in March, but I don't know anything. That's just my gut and everything I'm reading. That's just what I mean. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I agree with you on that. And then I see y'all sending in some celebration stuff.

I'm proud of y'all for sure. It almost sounds like Scott comes in that DevRel stuck in the same situation that engineering is that Mackenzie metrics. Yeah, I gleaned over that. I was just kind of mark. There's a complete disconnect between DevRel boots on the ground, understand the C-suite, and that's the case as a solution. Education or is it something else? Well, I mean, you can talk until you're blue, which is why I'm writing that DevRel book, because I'm so sick. You know, we do DevRel consulting at this thought. And it's like, oh, here we go, having another conversation. But what does that thing, right? Like what does that thing that people like point to?

And, you know, this, I haven't looked at the McKinsey metrics thing, but I'm curious. It's a bunch of words. Yeah. A bunch of words. It seems to be well pointed at and be like, well, this is what McKinsey said. Well, and it's so funny because Neil, who I brought on from Twitter out of DC, he said it's just a report to get devs fired. It's a framework to get devs fired. That's what McKinsey does. Like these consultants come in and make huge cuts. They make huge, but then they charge like what? Could you still have $300, $500 an hour for like a junior engineer? I go to bajazillion dollars.

Yeah. And to answer questions, we built in a, if you're a developer and you sign up for a guns platform or you're a client, there's a drop down. You have to answer, how did you hear about us? And I'm one of the drop downs. Nice, I like that. All righty, let's see here, see if anything else here, is morale a factor in successful engineering too? Is it valuable to bring some positivity to the table? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. You gotta learn, you gotta know how to code, But if you're like a hype person and you can bring energy and you can insert, like inject energy into an organization, I think that helps a ton.

Yes. I remember my first job actually, I was injecting energy. I was baking cookies every week, you know, maybe even like every few days, you know, just like, you know, I was so excited to be there. And you know, everybody around was like, well, what do you want? It's like, okay. Should I be nice? Well, bye. And then I started a startup. There you go. I said, we can't do this. Yeah, do you know why Tracy's cookies? You have a star startup also. I want to say cookies. All right, let's talk about the product you're kind of rolling out right now. Oh, yeah. Yeah, DevRelCity.

So DevRel.city is the website, or devrelcity.com. And we just watched it like one or two months ago. Pricing is specifically built for companies. you know, DevRel people, but, you know, DevRel in general, right, like a lot of the consulting would do is a lot of manual labor and manual work. So it's like, okay, how do I find all the people in the React community? What are the conferences I go to? What are the podcasts? I'm supposed to be on one of the CFP dates, right? Like, what are the meetups I should go to? So it really helps you, you know, the goal of DevRel generally is to build authentic relationships, but this kind of just gives you the foundation to say, here you go, we've built you the foundation that you can start building these authentic relationships on.

So we're nothing but a platform that surfaces the information that's valuable for you as a dove-world person and then we keep it up to date for you. Because I mean... That's another part of the issue. Right, exactly. Like, you know, I mean, Sean Wing is one of my favorite examples because, you know, he was like heavy into React. I feel like like he was heavy and dispelled, but like, you don't even know that unless you know. And then like, now you understand that Sean is into spelt and like actually no, now he's not. Now he's into, um, now he's into AI. But like, how would you even know unless you know, right?

Like you don't. So it's like surfacing that type of information, um, you know, and it's curated by, you know, experts within those communities. So yeah, check it out. Let me know if you have any questions. I love it. I'm definitely going to check it out. I'll let you know if I have any questions. All right. So Tracy, as we wrap up our time here, again, news would happen. Yeah. Time flies when you're hanging out with friends. I want to ask you just you run an organization. You see people interview, right? The people I listen, interview wins hard. It's hard in general. I learned this market.

What are just some general tips that you have for folks interview right now? Don't be a dick. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. So here's what I do. And here's what I'm encouraging people do. Okay, so you find a job, let's say it's at Twilio, right? And then you go on Twitter and you search who works at Twilio and you find those people and you start liking them. This is my dev role person coming out, right? Like you make a list of Twilio people, you like them, you know, you comment, you have conversations with them. I think Emmet is good at this stuff too, right? and that's gonna be in part of the community.

And then at some point in time you apply and then you can also ask this people like, hey, by the way, I applied for this job. It gives some sense of anytime anybody comes from me as an interviewing, as the first person who touches anybody at this thought, it's like if they're hanging out with me on Twitter, I kind of feel like more inclined to respond in a sense. So I think doing that, I think doing research on people in the company as well is really important. And then like, you know, I know like, some people try to be cute, like, oh, you're already asking me that question or whatever if you email, but it comes across wrong.

Comes across. You've already asked me that, what is that? Like, you know, if I'm an interviewing person and I'm like, ask a question again that they've already answered, you know, it might not be because I didn't, you know, for a variety of reasons I might have done that, right? But saying like, well, you already asked me that. It sounds cheeky and cute, but it's like, yeah, it just comes off rude and written language, right? So I think that following up, like people are like, well, I don't want to bug you. Look, bug me. I'll tell you when you're annoying. It's fine. The more people I talk to you on this pod, the more people just want to be bugged.

I want to be bugged. Yeah. Like I'm gonna be honest with you Tracy. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this. Yeah. I probably personally don't get back to you unless you send me the third message. Yes. Probably the time I get back to you. Yep. No, totally, totally. First message, I see it. Nope, Siri stopped talking to me. The first message I see, I see it. I'm gonna get to it, forget it. Second message, okay, I really gotta get to it. I have a message typed up. Probably got distracted. Third time I'm like, oh shit. Okay, I'm gonna respond right now. That's kind of how it goes.

Yes. Same for most busy people. So I would say like from an interviewing perspective, that's really important. And just building that relationship, right? Like keeping those doors open. Like I can't understand why people like just decide, you know, it's like, oh, I didn't get interviewed. So I'm gonna like talk smack about this person on Twitter or like leave a bad review on, you know, whatever platform. But it's like, dude, what about you wanting a job later? what about that person talking to your next interviewing manager, right? Like it stays and, you know, I mean, we don't talk about it, but I mean, there's definitely some bad apples in the community that like, you know, you'll share, you know, and, and I'm telling you, people talk.

So you might as well just like not be a dick. Yeah. I've been a dick sometimes. So I'm sorry for anybody who I've been a dick to. But generally speaking, right? Like let's all try not to. Yeah, 100% all right Tracy last three questions we wrap up with kind of a little bit of rapid fire. First question. What do you do outside of work that brings you joy right now. Buying toys for my child. We have so many toys we just went through a purge last night. Yeah. I'm just going to my toys, but yeah. Yeah. Educational toys. Yeah. Second thing is tools, technologies, frameworks, trends that you're interested in right now that you're currently tinkering with on the side.

Yeah. I think the two that have been top of mind are million JS and the Bun 1.0 release. Yeah. That bun is all over mind. I know, right? But million JS as well, right? I mean, 8 and is like 18. I think it's really interesting too, because I never thought about it from his perspective. Like, you know, what's the next generation of open source people like, what do they care about? I mean, when an 18 year old is running a project, better look out. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Last question, we had guidance counselors in middle school, high school and college, but now as adults, we don't really have them.

That's why their show is called guidance counselor 2.0. What would be your biggest piece of career advice to young Tracy? I don't know because I mean, I guess this was the advice I was always giving myself when I was young Tracy But this idea of like you know, it's a guidance counselor thing right like be introspective ask for help Be willing to be coached, you know, I'm telling you people I mean and I even see it right now like If you can't be coached people just give up on you and sometimes they won't tell you the truth and you know What do you do? You're just gonna be a dick for the rest of your life because nobody will tell you because you can't be coached but she's not asking the question.

So I think figuring out how to train yourself to do that or talk to a coach so you can reflect back what's happening is really, really, really important. I love that. I posted a piece of content last week and about auditing yourself with your inner circles. When's the last time you asked somebody in your inner circle, hey, how do I come across? Like are there any weaknesses I have? And that's hard. Your inner circle though might not be telling you the truth. That is true. And so I'm not saying you go around to everybody. I'm saying you go around to the one or two people you absolutely trust.

Um, but yeah, yeah, audit yourself. Yes. Yes. Yeah. If you get anything from this, Deborah is not going away and don't be a dick. Communication to practice your communication skills. Awesome. All right. Y'all will Tracy stay on real quick. I said, but you all thank you again for hanging out with us this morning. It flew by. It always does. I'm go connect with Tracy on Twitter. She's fantastic on LinkedIn. I'm Tracy just between me and you. I'm gonna check out this dev roll stuff for gun. I think it could be for us So I'm gonna check it out, but y'all have a great one Tracy.

Thank you And we'll see you all tomorrow morning. Peace Hey, you did it you listen to an entire episode and I am very grateful because you know why there's a lot of podcasts out there There's a lot of episodes and I myself rarely finished an entire episode So I appreciate you so so much for listening quick reminder Please rate and review this podcast in the app store I want this to be discoverable to others and the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and Review it please like right now Unless you're driving then don't do it. So Thank you again If you need to reach out to me at tdeston on all social media handles and I hope you have a fantastic day