laid off twice in a year w/ joe previte, sr. engineer

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auto-generated from the audio, so expect a few typos. the audio is the source of truth.

Joe, if you want to give your intro, just who you are, what you do real quick and then we just go from there. Sure. Hey everybody, happy. What's today, Tuesday? Tuesday, I have a good video. So he's got Wednesday, Bob, right? It does. It does. Okay. Cool. Hey, what's up? I'm Joe Previd. I'm based in Scotts, Arizona. Currently I work as a senior full stack engineer for a company called Mercury, which is in the FinTech space. It's kind of like, it's like banking, basically, but not bank. It's not a bank. And yeah, I got laid off once in January of this year and then another time in, we're gonna say August, I think it's the beginning of August.

So yeah. There we go, there you go. So all right, Joe, let's get into it, man. All right, so there's so many questions to ask people like what these type of interviews because there's just a lot to go after. First off, I wanna talk about your mental state when you get laid off, right? So it happened twice. Yeah. of suck. There's layoffs happening right now as we speak. What's your biggest advice when you first get the notice? Because I think people freeze. I think sometimes they try to jump back into the job search immediately and they're not in a good state. So do you have any advice for folks?

Ooh, it's a good question. Yeah, I mean, the way that it always happens is you get a surprise calendar invite. For the first one, surprise invite Monday morning at 9am from the CEO. like, hey, I want to just check in. You know it's coming, you hop on, like you're devastated when it happens. And most, like both of the times I think they gave me until like 12 o'clock that day to like wipe my computer, say buy to coworkers, clean up like any code or anything like that. Yeah. Yeah, and I don't know the advice. I mean, like usually I'll like go for a walk right after while I talk to my wife about it.

Yeah, I know. Let your plus one know, please. Yeah, exactly. And then yeah, I mean, I try and stay like pretty positive about it. Like the benefit of being laid off as opposed to like being in a toxic environment and having to look in stealth. Like when you're laid off, you can start looking in public. And I was like, okay. Talk about that. Let's do this. Talk about that. So like the first time I got laid off, you know, I can go on Twitter, I can go on LinkedIn. Like I've over the years have been spending a lot of time on those platforms, like meeting people, making connections, making friends.

And so when you can talk publicly, like people can start coming to you or you can, like it just brings so many more opportunities because you're like, the more you talk about it, like the more doors get opened, I guess. Yeah. That's the best way to put it. What, what, I can so many questions, trying to figure out like the best pinpoint. So, so, so you get laid off, you go for a walk. Man, where do you turn to first, right? Again, this happened twice. So like, like where do you go to? Do you start, do you open up your phone book on your phone and just start calling people?

Do you, I'm sure you do tweet that you were laid off. I mean, like where do you go to for you in the two times you were laid off? Yeah, I mean the first, like when I get laid off like the first thing I do is kind of think about who are my closest friends that are engineers? Are their teams hiring, right? Cause like why wouldn't you want to work with your friends? 100%. So like I might hit up like Will Johnson, right? Like hit up him, like, you see, you know, he works, I think he works at Okta right now. So like, hey, is your team hiring?

Hit up like old, like, you know, I use Sorka Facebook for a little bit. Hit up my like old boss or coworkers. So I usually go with that inner circle first because it's like, well, if I'm gonna get a new job, might as well work with people I like. Correct, correct. Do, did, did you have any cadence of, so when I, so it was interesting, I mean, I've been out here talking about the job search forever, right? And I've never been on the job search until obviously this year. And, and, and so now I have a different viewpoint in it. How, how did you structure your days to search, right?

Cause I was out here saying, you should be job searching eight hours a day. And then after I did, it's like, hell no, dude, that shit wears you out. So like, like, did you find a good cadence in it? I'm not asking for like a super regimented, but do you have any sort of cadence that figured out. Yeah. I mean, when I the first time I got laid off, I tweeted about it. And I was like, I'll talk to anyone and everyone. Sure. And so I like, I set up a calendally link and I was like, it was like 15 or 30 minute calls. And I just scheduled like, kind of like eight to five, basically.

Yeah. Kind of like you were saying. Yeah. The second time around though, like the first time when you do that kind of search and you get a lot of traffic, let's say that comes in. There's a lot of like, just not good fits, right? They're like, okay, we want you to move to San Francisco and I'm like, I have a two-year-old like a house. So the first approach worked to like meet a lot of people in a short period of time. The second approach though is probably more of a balance where I was like, okay, I'll schedule a couple calls, but then I'm going to block off like, you know, I'll do like three hours of calls in the morning and then in the afternoon I'll do like a two hour block of like prepping for a technical interview.

And then like, you know, if I would maybe prep for an hour and then after an hour, I was like, okay, I still have a free hour. Let me go like help my wife or like, you know, so I try to play it a little bit more flexible in the second round. Yeah. Is there, is there anything? Um, Kyle, I'm trying to, I know I keep saying this. I just have all the questions for you. What, what, what made you document your job? Did you document your job search the first time on Twitter? Like you did the second time? No, the first time I tweeted about it and that was basically it.

And the second time I would, I don't know what I would do. I mean, you would have did it and I loved following your update. So I'm kind of curious what made you document live from the first one and second one. Like I guess I need all the help I can get into this. Yeah. Okay. Let me, I'm going to put this, it won't let me put it in the main comments, but I'll drop it here in the private chat. Maybe you can share with people. Yeah. While you're sharing that. Yeah, basically, I don't know if I was just in the whole building public learning public mindset at the time, but I was like, okay, this is something that I would want to see.

A lot of people are getting laid off. And so I was like, let me put it out there. And there were a lot of lessons learned. I mean, one of the ideas was like, okay, if I apply to Riot Games, and I say that I got got rejected and there's somebody else that's like, wait, I know Joe's work by chance. Maybe they could root for me to get a second interview. I don't think that ever happened, but that was one of the ideas behind my mindset. The other one was kind of like, if I'm talking to Mercury and also like education first, like they can see like, okay, like here's the players, I guess, in the game.

I don't know. Um, yeah, I don't know. And then it was also just to kind of like give insight because it's like, it would be cool. What if we all did this, you know, I probably wouldn't work out, but, uh, I don't know. Well, no, I mean, so what would you say you had more traction and more activity the second time documenting your search and you did the first time? The second time I had like bigger companies, the first time it was a, because I only did like I did the Twitter kind of thing. And it would be like random founders that are like, oh yeah, like we're about to raise.

And I'm like, that's too early for me. The second time was a lot like bigger companies. Can you talk about again, I mean, talking about, you know, raising that's too early for you, what are some parameters that you held true to the job search? Because some people want early stage, some people don't, right? I mean, this is, you know, I worked for a billion dollar company, now I worked for a startup who just got their series A last year. So I mean, I mean, it's a pretty big difference. So what are some parameters you had and why just to maybe give some ideas to people?

Yeah, that's a good question. So, yeah, I mean, so the before I got laid off, I worked at this company called Coder. Series B, it was like 30 employees. It was awesome. I was there for a little over two years. And like the thing that I've realized is like a series B has like pretty good benefits. And so if that's important to you and your family, like that was kind of the parameter. Because when I, the first job I took after the first layoff was at a company that was 15 people. It was bootstrapped. It was like CEO, CTO, like, you know, it was very profitable.

Didn't raise any money, but it was 15 people. So like my team was me, a junior engineer and a CTO. Like I reported to the CTO. It's small. So you're like, so there's different dynamics at play, obviously. So when I was doing the next search, I was like, OK, I tried the 15 people. There were pros and cons. I've done the series B. The things that I was looking for, though, was kind of like, where is going to be a stable place? So probably something bigger. Good health insurance, good vision, dental. Like that was a big one. some type of like family benefits for the future, right?

Like trying to think like long term, like if I'm here for five years, and within the next five years, we want to have more kids, like who has a good parental leave. Yeah. Yeah. So that was, those were some of the parameters. I mean, the other one was like, um, series B usually can pay a little bit more. Like if you're going for a higher cash comp. Yep. Um, and no, this is good stuff. This is good stuff. And the reason I want to ask Joe this is because I feel like a lot of people start their search after they get laid off. And listen, I have the utmost empathy, right?

I mean, there's people that got laid off yesterday from Twilio and Spotify that their hedger spinning right now. And so, but, but I think you got to wait till your head stops spinning to starts. And if that's a day or that's a week, now it wouldn't probably take any longer than a week, but like it's okay to take time for yourself. And it, because I really, and then also figure out what you want, because you don't want to jump back into the job search and like you have no idea and then you take another job and you're just miserable. So that's why I dug into what Joe just now, just like, hey, listen, again, if you all watch right now and have questions, please ask.

Because again, I feel like a lot of times and one of my posts today on LinkedIn is going to be about this. I feel like a lot of people think senior developers, they just have it great. When in actuality, everyone deals with the same shit, right? You were laid off twice, right? I know I know my guy Emmet on the chat right here. He was late off. He's junior, you're senior. Y'all were both late off the same time, or the same amount of times in the year, right? So, it sounds great what's going on, what's going on. So, all right, so you were late off, first time, second time.

So aside from documenting your journey the second time, and you said that did lead to some larger fish in the sea leads per se, what are some other things that you change modified, took out that sucked the first time, not doing that the second time. Any thoughts on that? Good question. And then why are you thinking about that James? We miss you too, man. We miss you. Yes, definitely miss you, James. Dude, good question. Yes. So doing the biggest change was documenting it publicly. I'm trying to think if I did this the first time. One of the things I did the second time too was like live streaming my technical challenges.

Oh, talk about that. Wait, you did this a second time? I believe so. Yeah, yeah. I think it was the second time. What do you mean by that? Like, like, what, like what? OK, so you know how some of the sometimes we get, like, technical take-homes, right? Yes. Yes, wait, you stream those? So I asked permission to be clear. I did ask permission. But I think real one or two of them, I was like, well, if I'm going to do this, like, let's do this on public again. And so I did it on the switch. And again, if you went to my Twitch right now, I probably have 100 followers, maybe it's maybe 50.

So it wasn't a big audience. But I was like, okay, let me talk about it publicly. It's going to be some accountability, right? Like I'm doing it on stream. I'm like, let's solve this in an hour. I can send them the recording after. See if I can pull up real quick. For example, one of the jobs I interviewed for was a developer advocate role. And they were like, hey, can you do a take home? And I was like, sure. And so I did that and I broke it into videos and turned it into like a playlist, like into content. So let me drop this here in the chat.

Okay, here we go. Yes. So this is a great example. I was like, okay, I was like, do you care if I live streaming? Because again, playing into that role, developer advocacy, you're doing content, you're doing things publicly, I was like, this will help me stand out. So I was like, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to make four videos. So the part one is like the brainstorm. The second is like planning what we're going to build. The third was the literal live stream where I built it, like in an hour 20. And then the fourth was like a demo. And then I sent them the playlist.

That one leaded to an offer. This one led to an offer? Yeah. So I think that played, I think that helped a lot. I mean, the recruiter even said Megan, she was super nice. She was like, yeah, like that, you know, that kind of wowed the committee who was sort of reviewing your application. Well, because ain't nobody have the balls, excuse my language. No, ain't nobody got the balls to stream their interviews live. I mean, like, like in hindsight, Joe, like, props to you, man, props to you. I want to get to a few comments real quick read. My guy read read is a two time guest of the show.

He's a CTO out of Knoxville. I've interviewed several high quality incredible cans who were dealing with things on that specific day and bomb the interview because her head was not in the right space. Definitely prevent your best self. Jodi, I mean, you got any more thoughts on this? Yeah, no, I totally agree with read there. I mean, so okay, you're from are you familiar with my first million the podcast? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So there are some gold nuggets on that podcast. So one of the tips, so you know how like athletes, like a basketball player, they've got like a warm-up routine. So one of the hosts, Sean talks about this.

He says that like before his video calls, like today, for example, before a podcast, he's got a warm-up routine. And he does that to get himself in the right mindset. And so like, I think that's something somebody could do as well of like a couple of times like I would throw on like an EDM like how song just kind of like jump up the gun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Get it going. No, I love that. I think, I think pregame rituals, you know, I've talked a little bit about rituals like we all have nighttime rituals morning rituals. Like for me, it's breakfast, protein shake, vitamins, coffee.

You know, we all have rituals and rituals can go from very small to, Hey, I say a quick prayer before going out and playing on the field to yeah. Cold plunge shower. You know, it like it can get pretty intense. Journaling mindfulness, you know, kind of like the what all these tech bros do, right? That we all kind of make fun of these kind of these like long rituals. But I think having a ritual, I think is a very good point. I think what leads to Reed said, and again, what you said, I think, I think you, you, you interviewing, you got to bring your best self to the interview and if you need to find a way to do that, one of the things.

So when I was in counseling, I still am in counseling, but my last counselor, I was having problems getting really, really burnt out throughout the day. I still do, but it's something I'm continually keep monitoring on, but he was like, you need to provide like actual space during your meetings and not go back to back to back. Because what happens is, is that your brain can't relax. And so you're essentially like, you know, going nonstop. And so even if it's like, hey, I'm gonna do five minutes and I'm gonna like listen to EDM or, you know, listen to headspace the app before an interview, do something.

So I think that's great. Let's see here. Got to run, but we'll let them see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It won't be on YouTube, Tom, but it will be on my podcast and it'll be both streamed to our LinkedIn page. You can check that out. And then and Ray, my guy on TikTok goes, Taylor burnt out, no way. Yeah, always. All right, so we did the comments or we talked about building in public for that. Is there any other hacks that you did the second time around aside or was it mainly documenting and then streaming the second time around, which I think are both very, very good things.

Yeah, documenting streaming and I'm trying to think anything else. The one thing I want to caveat is like, when I started talking publicly about it, I was like, I should show the wins and the failures, right? Like if somebody rejects me or I fail a technical interview, I should talk about that. Yeah. The thing, that kind of backfired a little bit though. Really? And I didn't expect this because I- Because I talk about doing this, so please tell me how it backfired. So for example, there was a company I was interviewing with called Brilliant, brilliant.org, which is kind of like a mobile app. It's kind of like Duolingo, but for math and science and programming.

Super stoked about it. I had like made it to the final round, had like the technical interview and bumped it. I think I just got in my head and wasn't able to solve it in time. But I talked about it. And then later, I was talking to a head of engineering at a company that I met through like GTI. And he was like, one of the red flags that one of our engineers brought up was like, he was looking at your LinkedIn and it seems like you're failing a lot of technical interviews. In sure. I'm like, Oh, damn. I mean, here's the deal. Yeah, I was like, yes.

But like, I know, like, I suck it. Like at the time I was like, I suck it system design and algorithms. Like I can solve them, but it takes me a long time system design. I just need to get better at. And so that after that, he was like, okay, like we still want to interview you. But from that point I was like, okay, maybe I don't want to talk publicly about the failures. Yeah, so this is Man that is an interesting John comes in goes rude. So here's I think that's an interesting take I mean and this is why I say online like I think vulnerabilities important I think being transparent.

I think documenting your failures, but but I think you got to be careful right now Knowing you you're not the guy that's gonna be like doing it non-stop I'm sure not all your posts were about failing. I'm sure it was one or two post I was it so like I am surprised they kind of got weirded out by that but yeah I mean listen, you know, I do think it is important But I also think that that that you got to be careful You got to be careful because people can see your post and got to be careful what you comment on and like because they can see all of it So just just the heads up just a heads up.

Um, so all right, so we've talked about kind of what what you did differently What were, talk to me about how you got both jobs, right? Like the OG, how did you get your first job in January? And then how did you get your second job this last time around? Yeah, for sure. So the first one in January was like, I tweeted about it, said I was looking, pinned it to my profile, somebody's brother-in-law. So basically like the head of like the CEO or something, like, not CEO, the COO. Her brother-in-law had sent her the tweet. She DM'd me and was like, hey, we'd love to interview you.

And then the CTO also reached out, did a couple calls, did a technical interview. They made an offer. I took that one. The second one with Mercury, I was telling you before we started, my best friend's partner, she had a friend who was like, hey, I know a lot of recruiters in the space, like, let me help you. She's like, here are the companies that I know are any interesting. And I said, yes, Mercury looks super interesting. So she knew somebody who worked there an engineering manager who I talked to through LinkedIn, kind of got my foot in the door through that through referral, you know, and did well enough to make it to the office stage at the end.

That's awesome. So so both connections or both jobs were from connections who you knew the Well, the first one wasn't, I didn't know anybody at that company. Okay, sorry, sorry, sorry. That worked because of social media. The first one. That was because of social media. Exactly. Yes. And then the second one was because you knew somebody. Yes, exactly. That also come for social media too or not. Like technically, the one. No, it's like my childhood best friend. Okay. Cool. I just want to make sure. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So again, so here Joe found his two jobs that he got laid off in a year, one through social media, one through his own personal network.

So again, everything I talk about, right? I think it's incredibly important. Let's see here. What else? Anything else I haven't touched on because we are, believe it or not, I knew this would happen. We are kind of finishing up time. Is there anything that we haven't touched on that you really want to get across? Because my brain is working overtime right now trying to figure it out. One other thing that comes to mind about the talking in public. So towards the end, I stopped talking about the failures publicly just for the not get the judgment like James was saying. The other thing though is like, I had to start being more careful about what round I was at.

Like if I said, oh, I'm at the final round with Stitch, but I'm also interviewing with Mercury. Then Mercury might look at my next week's post to see, like, did he make it to the offer stage with Stitch because he was at the final round last week? You know what I mean? So like, trying to be a little bit less transparent about what stage I was at with companies, because otherwise they would like use it against each other. Like, well, you just had the final interview with Brilliant. What happened? You know what I mean? Does that make sense? It's not good, Sharon, where you're at all the time.

Publicly, like. Oh, publicly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like if I'm talking to a recruiter, you know, like sure I might be, I might, you know, because they're helping me, I help them. Sure. But publicly, if I'm like, yeah, I'm at the third stage of Stitch, Echovine, whatever, then they're gonna look for the next week and be like, oh, did you fit, like do you still have those? Yeah, it's your ass thing. You know what I mean? Okay, gotcha, gotcha, yep. So. than to kind of keep in mind. So be careful of that. Yeah. So two things, be careful of. One, documenting too much of your failures.

I think documenting your failures is fine for the record. But just be careful with it. And two, you said, don't actually publicly say where you're at with companies because the companies could potentially question you, like, hey, I haven't seen any updates. What's going, like that you don't have that type of thing? Yeah, because, well, because, so basically the, because like, you know, sometimes if a company is moving slow and you want it to move further along. Because what you're trying to basically like hedge for is like what happens if you get an offer from one company and you're still waiting to see what's gonna happen with your company?

Sure like, hey, like I'm at the final stage of this. But if you're talking about that publicly, then like they might use that against you of like, well last week you were at the final stage and this week you're not. So that means you probably got rejected. So we're gonna slow down. Oh, I see, yeah. Interesting. Okay, good thought. Yeah, because I, Because one thing that I really did is I was incredibly transparent. I was incredibly transparent for where I was at with the people who I was interviewing with. I was like, hey, listen, I got an offer. I got a verbal. You know, just want to keep you in a loop, right?

And that actually helped me think long. Totally. On my end. All right. So what else? Is there anything else? We missed anything else? So again, to recap, document your shit, leverage your friends, stream if you feel comfortable, stream, make sure you don't document too much negative, maybe don't document too much of where you're at publicly with other companies. Anything else? Links. Links. Have links ready. Links, like for what? So like when I was in the middle of a call, I could be like, yeah, like here's the newsletter that I'm doing on the side like, oh, got you. Oh, I love that. I love that. From this open source project.

I think having those like handy like that, like doing things that help you stand out like little things, right? Like I bought this hat during my job interview, idea guy. I want that. What's that about? What's that about? What's that about? You know, conversation starters. And then having like mental, like for example, let me. last thing I'll say right now. You're good and you're really good with these links. I can tell. Like you're really good with these links. Like you keep sending me stuff like quickly, which is great. So like this one, like in the Mercury interview, I think at the end I talked about this mental model I had or I learned from the podcast, my first million, like treadmill friends, which is kind of like there are people in the world who like lift you up and like after you talk to them, you're like, oh my gosh, I got to go run a marathon.

And there are other people that like, wow, that was exhausting. I'm going to go sit down on the couch. That's me. So I like brought this up at an interview and like again, it's like conversation starters, things that help you stand out. Like I think that helps a lot. Because all of us are like, and we have our own mental models. Like you were, you called it like a pregame rituals. Yeah, yeah, pre-em rituals, right. Yeah, right. Like talking about that, that I think that helps me a lot. Yeah, I love that, I love that. Cool. All right, last few questions again, if y'all have questions, please ask them now.

But also to go back to the hat real quick. I think this is a great idea because I really do want that about it. So send me a link when you're done. Okay, I got it. Okay. Because I love a good dad hat with sayings on it. Yeah. I noticed this when I went to Thrive Technical Conference this past year. We got really cool shirts from Gunio. One of them says we help hackers get paid because again, we're kind of a freelance platform. So I wore that shirt. A lot of questions. We help hackers get paid. Who do you work for? Right? That was one.

Second thing, is and I don't I don't recommend you like fake physical James the hat says idea guy idea guy I wouldn't fake an injury but my tendonitis flared up and I was in a boot for the whole conference and the boot helped me have so many conversations with people so easily I didn't have to come up with them they couldn't be like hey what's going with your boot and I just told them and and I came up with a line of being like yeah I I want to say it's from I talky, but really I'm just old and have tenonitis, right? And so I kind of played into that and they're like, oh, you play I talky and then it kind of snow.

So for me, I think this is huge. I think have something like a shirt. If you want to do virtual, I think that's great. But also too, when it comes to networking, which I'm really passionate about, I would have something maybe that you wear a lot. Me was like the floor shirts, you know, or the hat, the idea guy. I mean, I think something like that's huge. Brandon comes in here again as we wrap up here. You mentioned streaming. What are you doing, Joe? You mentioned streaming. Do you have a particular platform you like to stream? Yeah, I did some Twitch streaming in the past.

So I would just stream on Twitch, but like during the job hunt, I would try and do this like work in public. So either doing like here, I'm working on a technical take home, or I'm prepping it for an interview, like where I was like asking chat GPT questions for system design. So just trying to like, cause like it gets so lonely when you're doing the job hunt. And like you were saying, like in the very, if you jump right in, like you might go crazy just cause you know, like grinding. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I love it. I love it. All right. So we're also live in South Africa today.

What's going on in manual? Thanks for tuning in man. Appreciate it. All right. So last four questions as we wrap up here and again, if you have questions, please ask Joe. Otherwise, thank you again for tuning in today. First question, Joe. If money was, so this is a brand new question I've started to ask. If money was the same, what would you do for your day job outside of CODEN? If money was the same, like you could do anything. Dude, I would get paid to learn languages, like foreign languages. Wow, you're a nerd. Dude, do you have a foreign language you really want to master first?

Yeah, so right now I'm raising my daughter bilingual in Spanish. And so I'm always trying to get to the next level. After just being there, can't confirm, it's probably a good idea. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, James, James goes Spanish to each other. There you go. Second question is, what brings you joy outside of work? I mean, spending time with family, that's kind of the obvious one of the two-year-olds. So doing that. And then besides that, I mean, just like learning. Like I love to learn. So I'm always listening to like podcasts or like building little side projects. So like just making stuff for fun. Yeah, I would say I love that.

I love that third thing. Third question. Any tools, technologies, trends that you're reading about drink tinkering with on the side that you wanted to obviously share with the people. Oh, I'll plug a refold. Let me drop you a link. This is in the language learning space. But like, it's like, you know, we have a lot of these like mental models, like programming, like patterns, design systems, things like that. In the language learning world, Rifold is kind of like a framework. They can apply to language learning. So I'll plug that one because that one I'm like big on right now. That that that edited weird. Okay.

Rifold. There was. Oh, yeah, Alex has a good question too. I don't know why I still that. Yeah, just look at Rifold dot LA. Just, just like that. Yeah, as Joe found companies to be happy about streaming technicals when he's asked about it, did he ever get pushback on it? So the developer advocate ones, obviously because the role kind of warrants that, they were like, gave me the big thumbs up, like, can you hear it? I'm sure. Some of them were okay. There was one that was not okay, because they were like, the interview's the same for everybody, and so if you stream it, it gives it away.

So yeah, there was a couple. So I just asked ahead of time. Yeah, I love that. I love that. All right, man, last question of the day. We had guidance counselors in middle school, high school and college. Yeah. But now as adults, we don't have any, that's why the show's called guidance counselor 2.0. What would be your biggest piece of career advice to young Joe? Ooh. Dude, the thing that I wish I would have done, either before college or after graduating college, would be like shadowing people. Like, yes. You know when I wait for that, Because I think that was hot when I was in high school or something.

Okay. My job was. Yes. Like my sister-in-law just graduated from college. Like she's like, I think her graduation is next week. Um, she studied English, super smart, super bright. And she's like, do I go to law school? Do I become a teacher? Do I go work in sales? And like, I wish I would have had that mindset of like, let me go see what a programmer does. Yeah. Or let me go see what a recruiter does or let me go see what some of you say. You know, so that would be the advice is like shadow people before you choose something. Kind of like what you were saying before, like slow down before you jump in the next job.

Yeah, I think shadowing is huge. Like to be honest with you, I think if I were to go back and like I were, I was trying to make music or trying to make it a music and I didn't know nine to five. I would literally just start calling companies, but hey, can I just come out and shadow? Yeah. I think one company's be like, what the fuck were you talking about? But I think everyone would say yes. I think everyone would say yes because it's like hey I just want to show up for like two hours. Yeah, that's it. And just see because like and just try stuff because I think what happens is is that yeah, we put so much pressure on ourselves from a career to make it work the first time when in actuality if we just shadowed that person for two hours we probably wouldn't even have gotten that down that career right.

So exactly. I love that. Cool. All right I got to bounce Joe. It's good to see you my friend. You're the best for everybody. Please go connect with Joe on Twitter or LinkedIn. but Joe appreciate you, man. And actually stay on real quick so I can say bye to you off there. But you all have a good one. We'll see you all tomorrow. Peace. See you guys. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode. And I am very grateful because you know why? There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes. And I myself rarely finished an entire episode. So I appreciate you so, so much for listening.

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