the art of relationship building w/jeff torbeck, vp of revenue at gun.io

full transcript

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Alright, Jeff got a lot to talk about today, man. Want to give a quick intro, give the people what they want. Who are you? What do you do? And we'll go from there. You know, I like to think I'm a Swiss Army knife and I do a lot of things, but title wise, I was just brought on at Ganyo on their VP of revenue. So I run all of sales and customer success. Obviously we've worked together. And really I've just been in the marketplace space for talent and recruiting for the last eight to 10 years. And so I got introduced to Gun and Tasia in their mission and what they're doing.

And I just think it's an amazing company. So it's going to be a fun time to build something there and all startups. There's things that are working and the things that aren't. So it's going to be fun to work with everybody. I think we have a super, super smart team. So it's going to be fun to get everybody together and see what we can build going to 2024. Then they go overall 2023 was a rough year for a lot of folks. So. Yeah, yeah, 100%. So talk to me about, like you're background. So you've been one, three, you've helped scale three startup sales teams, right?

Yep. Yeah. So I want to set the stage for what we're about to talk about and kind of build a little bit. So you've kind of been in this for a bit. Yeah, I've helped, yeah. I helped scale three different companies and I think the interesting part is like one was super well funded, one was bootstrapped, And then I guess gun is kind of like a conversion of both, right? They were bootstrapped for a while. They just got money last year. So I think the experience lines up with, with what they're looking for somebody in my position to do today. So it's going to be fun.

Absolutely. All right. So I want to talk about. So everybody, everybody that's on the chat, for those of you, welcome, Mark, John, Jason. It's great to see all this morning. I want to talk about in today's where I talk about about networking, right? And networking virtually and building relationships virtually. It's definitely an art, Jeff, based on our conversations, you know, in the first few weeks you've been here, you obviously get it. Everybody on here is in tech, has been a job seeker, is currently a job seeker. What would be your best advice right now, man? How do you build relationships in really this remote first world?

Yeah, I think, I heard an interesting quote, actually, I think it was yesterday or early this morning, it's like, I think it's about building community and things like that, but there's always people that join places and are asking like, I need help, I need help, what can I do? And like, that's not a bad thing, but I think you gotta get ahead of that and like be at service to other people. So like, I always try to like keep my door open. Like if somebody hits me up on LinkedIn or, you know, cold calls me and says, hey, I just have some questions about like how you build a career, do you have time?

Like I always make time for people, right? Like there's a lot of people that charge for their time and things like that. Depending on what it is, like I try not to do that, right? I wanna try to help people and pay it forward because I think other folks have done that for me, and that's I think how you build your career. I think as we look forward to, right, like this like networking and relationship and back channeling, all that kind of stuff is gonna be in the forefront. So if you are looking for a new job or you wanna get into a company, like somebody's gonna have to open a door for you.

Like it's not gonna be like post and hope or like reply to a posting and hopefully you get in. I mean, you just look through LinkedIn the last six months about how many people have been out of jobs for nine months and applied to a thousand gigs and gotten two interviews that were shipped to begin with. And so I think it's really about creating the right network around you that will support you because the reality is like, whether you do a reference check or whatever, people are going to back channel you. And like you wanna have enough people that have like, oh, I've interacted with Jeff or I've interacted with Taylor and like here's my example.

It doesn't even have to be somebody that works with you. But like if you're like the selfless person during an interaction with somebody else, like that is going to go so much farther than like a lot of the quote unquote work experience that people put on there because I think when it comes to work experience, like you can make data say whatever you want, right? And there are people that seem really, really good. Like people that join companies that the sales is just figured out for them and they're all the sudden they have this amazing seller. They go to, you know, a startup where they actually have to build something and they can't do it because they never actually learned how to do stuff the right way.

That makes sense. Right. Yeah, without a doubt. I want to ask you, you know, kind of building, kind of building a network. Like, what is what does that look like? I mean, you know, people struggle, you know, they're like, well, there's no meetups by me. And again, I'm kind of getting this kind of your philosophy of sales that we talked about the community led approach. Well, what would be your biggest advice to folks who are looking who really want to be in community, but just can't find anything locally in their area? They're probably not looking in the right places, to be fair. Like, I think it's one of those things where it starts to kind of get out there.

There's a ton of local meetups. There's you know, Facebook groups, there's LinkedIn groups, like there's communities on there and it, if there isn't something in your area, try to get part of a bigger community and start something, right? Like I'm a pavilion member. They do a lot of like chapter stuff. I know there's other communities, like I'm part of GTM United. Like there's a bunch of different communities that I pay to be a part of, right? And they're building out local chapters. And if there isn't like say a national chapter or Chicago chapter or whatever, like go start one, like work with some people and say like, Hey, let's build something and start it.

Hey, that's going to skyrocket your networking ability. But more importantly, there may be something in there. So I think it's about asking the questions of where is it right? It doesn't. And I think people are hesitant about that because they think they got to create this like amazing experience that they do a networking thing. It could be like getting drinks. It could be like working together at a coffee shop Like I think it doesn't have to be this like massive move that people don't think yeah. Yeah Well, like I love that. I think people over complicate networking, right? Now it's good to see you For me like last night when to this founders meet up, right?

There was only seven people there But that was great because I was able to network with all seven people and get their contact information I feel like people are like well, I need to like If I start something, it's got to be 100 people off the bat. Or if I start something like, I got to have just all these people around me and you don't. I literally just going to coffee. Yes, I caught up with the founder on unicorn finance and other podcast. Neil, he said the one thing that he regrets the most is actually asking people to coffee in college. He was like, the art of a coffee chat is so powerful when it comes to networking in people's careers.

Yeah, exactly. And it's to your point, like, that doesn't have to be a bunch of people. Like if you're in more of like a remote location or not in a typical hub for where whatever you do works, it's like find three or four people and just like make it a, make it a bi monthly thing or a monthly thing to start and like just be post, like post about it and say, Hey, it was great meeting up with these four people and like eventually it'll turn to five, which will turn to six, which will turn to 10. And it's may never get to a thousand, but like who cares?

It doesn't need to. Right. doesn't need to and they may open doors to other communities or other networks or other groups that you don't know and maybe there is a group a little bit farther away right like I live in the Bay Area so there's a ton of like stuff that happens in San Francisco but I'm 35 miles from the city so it's not that like easier ideal to go in all the time but I do because I know there's a larger group of people in there right there's also stuff you know I'll buy me that happens but it's like you also need to think about like how do I you know expand my horizons and get a little bit out of my comfort zone to meet people.

Yeah. That's clearly right here. I don't want to. Yeah. Shits exhaust. Yeah. Uh, where it goes. One of the best user group meetups I've been to had six people in there. Doesn't have to be big. Yeah. 100% without a doubt. Um, let, you know, uh, Jeff, you said something when we first caught up when you first got hired at gun about like, um, you know, cold calling, you know, doesn't necessarily work. Um, you're really big on community. Can you talk about just what building community has done in your previous stops? Because I think people hear me talking all the time, being in community, please network.

And people are like, shit, I'm so tired of you talking about this. I'm trying to get other people to talk about it, right? So can you talk about the importance of community that you've seen and stops with your career? Yeah, somebody asked me this question actually, like a couple months ago of like, what's the best advice you would give to somebody just starting out that you didn't do when you were young And to be fair, almost 20 years ago, when I started working, like we didn't have all the opportunities we have now. There weren't communities. I was talking to myself about this. I can't imagine trying to build network.

LinkedIn wasn't as social like it wasn't like, like even in a company level, like departments didn't collaborate. Like it was very silent. And so when I was starting on my career in sales, it was like, if I want to be good at sales, like I just have to outperform everybody and I just have to keep my head down and like, people didn't share ideas. Like it was very shark tank style, like it wasn't great. But I think like the way you wanna build this day with all these opportunities out there is like, you should learn from people that are already done it, right? We don't need to reinvent the wheel.

And so like being part of these communities or networking or helping other people or just talking to other people that are A in the role that you're in now, so you can do it. But more importantly, talk to the people and work and network with the people that are in the role you want to be because A, you might find out, is that even a role I wanna do? Like the thing that comes up all the time for me is people that wanna get into leadership, my first question is why? And a lot of it is because I want a better title and isn't that growth path?

No, I know some super successful people that have been ICs their whole life, they're gonna stay ICs their entire life and they're going to just have the best world in their life. They're gonna make a shitload of money, they're going to just worry about their stuff and they're gonna be fine, right? I think at the end of the day, it's what you want to do. And I think as people start to career path themselves and understand what they want to do, go talk to people that are in the roles you think you want to go to and challenge why you want to be there. To double click on your point of cold calling and things like that.

Yeah, because again, I love one of the first meetings together, you were basically like, cold calling sucks. Well, it's not something that people want to do. I don't like, I'm not gonna sit here and say it doesn't work. But I think in today's world, I think in today's world, since we've gone remote, like really since 2020, so many companies have invested in all these tools to sequence as many people as possible. Because essentially what they're trying to do is brute force the idea of timing, right? You can sell, sometimes you can't sell something because the buyer that you're talking to just isn't in a buying motion.

And so you think if I just, I'm constantly hitting them every two weeks or every week or whatever the heck it is these days, like I'm gonna hit them at the right timing. That's not how buyers wanna buy. And so it's not that I'm against cold calling. What I think is where we're going, especially with like Google and Yahoo, tightening down on how you can do emails and things like that these days is, it's gonna be very network driven and community driven. You're gonna get introductions people and other folks are gonna say like, hey, before I interact with X company, have you worked with them before?

How was your experience, things like that? And you're also gonna build this brand So people really understand what you do, what your product does, what your different jaders are, so that when you do reach out to them, which I look at is, I want to remove cold calling and I want to create warm calls. I want to create warm calls because I want to create a group of people where I've messaged them, but I'm not asking for their time. I'm helping give them ideas, whether it's like for our space, whether it's like salary bands or what we're seeing in the market or what's been challenging or how to help interviewing tips to move along faster to grab top talent like be the thought leader in the space so that when they do need help you already have this reputation of like you're just trying to make this space better versus like I'm just trying to push this massive product so I can make a revenue like I think that's that's a big part of it so I know I love that tremendously I want I want to ask you about what you're you're really in my career working with sales people, very few people have adopted the art of posting the LinkedIn, right?

And I preach about post-linked in, I promise it'll change, you know, I truly think everybody is 100 posts away I've linked in. Everybody is 100 posts, consecutive posts away on LinkedIn from unlocking something crazy awesome in their career is what I truly think. What prompted you to get on it? Like I said, you're the first sales leader that I've worked with in 12 years that really, I think, sees the importance of posting LinkedIn is everybody on here. I've talked about social proof in your career, building them public. Talk about really what prompted you to start posting on LinkedIn. Yeah, so I think it's different from why most people do.

I think today people just want to be famous and people just want to have a lot of followers so that they can say they're an influencer and they're really going to what they do. Shit, man. I know, sorry. That's a big view for folks. And I kind of stayed away from that. I didn't post as consistently as I do now for a long time, mainly because there was a lot of thought of people don't want to hear from me because I really haven't accomplished a lot. When I look back, I've accomplished a lot more than what a lot of people are posting about. And I've been in a lot of different situations it is.

I post today because I am motivated externally. So I love meeting with people. So since we're remote now, like I just love the interaction and learning from people. And so posting has really got, it's almost like therapy to me, it's able to like get some of the thoughts that I've had off and then see how people interact with it. And then to be able to interact with them to me, like challenges is my thoughts, brings new ideas in. Again, it builds my community, which is great, but it's more of just like this way for me to thought share out there and really kind of like test some of the things that I'm either hearing or seeing, because I'm trying to talk to people every day about what's going on, what's changing in the market.

I mean, I think what we've seen through COVID and then what we saw in 2023, like going forward sales is going to change, right? And I think it's awesome. I think it is. Yeah, I think this like idea of like revenue at all costs is dead where you should just race from funding to funding. I think I just posted about that the other day because I was on another podcast chatting about that. And I know that's jealous, jealous. I know that's why we're here to get together today. But I think like this efficiency and getting to this motion of like, we're gonna sell the way buyers wanna buy and like smaller teams that are more efficient, companies that are more efficient, racing the profitability versus just racing to the next round of funding.

Like that's the stuff I want to talk about. And that's, it's just been a way for me to really kind of like deepen my thought and like relationships with new people and even old people that I've reconnected with. So I think to your point, there's a ton of power in LinkedIn. I just think people are scared to post on there because they think they need to post something that no one's ever said before. That's like a silver bullet that's gonna solve all the problems in the world. And really like it's a social network, right? It's a social network for work. So like you should make it whatever you want.

And if you just wanna do short posts or you wanna do videos or you wanna just comment a lot on people's posts and not post on your own, that's totally fine. But to your point, like people that are struggling to expand their network or community that aren't leveraging a platform like LinkedIn We're probably missing something. Yeah. Let me ask you this. We're kind of getting into the last little bit of this conversation again. Thanks for everybody who's been tuning in over time. Narayno comes in here talking about just selling and building relationships. But also, people never see it as making the space better instead of selling something.

Yeah. And I think that's why I love Jeff at the helm of GONIO, because he understands that. I think we're trying to give back. We're not necessarily trying to sell something. Valerie comes in here. I'd love to start posting on here. But I'm not sure what to post. and I feel you like you said who wants to hear from me. I'll try to get over that fear. Yeah, I mean, listen, I think people, we're obsessed with our phones, right? Like we're on the internet and we love looking at content, right? And we just do. And so Valerie, don't get in your head. Like just start talking about whatever you're passionate about whether it's tech.

I mean, Jeff posts a lot, Jeff, your family man. You have two kids, right? Two kids? Two kids and then you do competitive like racing, right? Triathlon stuff or? Yeah, triathlons and running. Yeah, I was a swimmer my whole life. So, you know, the endurance helps me get there. You've noticed a lot about that. So I talk about even just posting about the personal stuff and how that's moved into the new yoke. So I think people get weird like, should I post, what should I post about? Yeah. Yeah, it's just genuine, right? I think, I think in some heights, LinkedIn is not like the Facebook of the world.

And I think that's what people worry about. But I think what my argument would be is, You can post personal stuff because it makes you seem like a real person, right? You people should see your personality and who you are. You're not just a work person, you're not just a work professional, right? We always talk about work-life balance. Like, great. If you're only posting about work and you're posting 25 times a day and you're posting in the night and in the morning, like, and then you post about work-life balance, it's like, okay, do you really have it? I mean, I'm sure you can schedule posts and things like that.

Like there's game-inships around that. But like authenticity I think is so important and it's like if that's the thought day to day that you're just like really excited about like a race coming up or you're like it's the holiday season so like I'm super excited to take my kids to see Christmas lights tonight because they're so jacked up about Christmas. I'm going to keep them controlled for three more weeks with Christmas. They think it's tomorrow in their minds. So I think it's just getting through the fear of posting about people and I think the other thing people really bother people is like they make a post and they get six people to like it and they're like well that wasn't worth it and it's like okay who cares like if you're if you're posting for likes or follows that's the wrong reason.

Exactly. Yep. Yep 100% without a doubt. All right as we kind of uh the last little bit I want to ask you just about what you believe in as a sales guy like what are some principles that you believe in that you're obviously going to implement that gun, just some general high levels, sales mindsets that you bring to the table that you believe in. Yeah, I think a couple of folks said it here, like the nuance of being, I think Jason said it, like he said something about the nuance of being genuine and not coming off salesy. Like that falls back to the idea of like activity doesn't win, right?

The people that have the most activity that orgs don't have the most deals, don't have the most opportunities. People that lean into the right activity, and I think that's the hardest part that companies have to figure out is what is the right activity? Who's the right people you should be talking to? And it's really, really hard in the recruiting space because recruiting is so timing based. We can reach out to the exact ICP, the right person, the right organization that should be using our tool, but if they're not hiring, they can't use us. And I always give the examples of like, if I'm not buying a car, I don't just talk to car salesmen.

I don't just go to dealerships and and like, hey, how's it going today? Like, wanted to check in, or like, I don't talk to realtors if I'm not buying a house. Like, it's the same thing. Like timing has to be there. And so that's why I'm excited about a lot of these tools that are coming up in the world. And so I don't think it's activity. That's one of my big principles. It's more about how can we be strategic and meet buyers when they want to buy. And there's intent tools out there. There's buying signals, whatever you want to call it. That's what I want folks to focus on, because I think buyers are just like the main reason people don't want to talk to sales people typically is because a naturally people don't want to be sold they want to kind of make the decision themselves and so you have to be in their buying situation and be in their buying cycle like meet them and and and lean into how buyers want to buy your product versus making a a client or a prospect buy your product the way you want them to buy and that's a big difference for how it goes and I think a lot of companies forget about that.

Yeah, I love that. What else? What else you got? I mean, what are some other principles that the Jeff sales principles, beliefs and things that. Yeah, I think collaboration across apartments. I think we see it really, really well at gun. Obviously our Slack channel is private because it's our company stuff, but I think the amount of people that cross communicate in our company and the people that want to help affect other departments that aren't in their department is, I think, a refreshing breath of air, if I wanna put it that way, because I think a lot of companies are so siloed and the world is changing when it comes to revenue.

Revenue is not just a sales game. Revenue is a company problem. Like, product needs to solve it, marketing needs to solve it, engineering needs to solve it, and sales obviously needs to be on the front line because they're bringing it in. But like, you think of all the biggest deals like when you truly get into enterprise sales, it ain't one person selling, right? It's a lot of people being involved. You think of like the sales forces of the world and things like that. There's an account manager, but there's like 17 people behind them that are really doing the selling and doing all that stuff. And this is just the one point of contact for people that that trickles down the startups and everything as well.

Like it's about bringing people together and collaborating across the org, what we should be building when we should be building it, how we're going together. And then it's about leveraging everybody's network. Like you're great about this, about you're so well connected. It's really, really helpful for us to get the introductions to the right people so that you can kind of build this trust already with your client or your prospects of like, hey, like Taylor's willing to say yes about this. Like we should have a conversation with this person. With like other communities and things like that. Like you're going to get back channeled as we talked about earlier.

And so be thoughtful about how your outreach is. And I think it's also like be respectful. So one of the things that has been happening a lot with cold calling is people will double call me. And that annoys me more than anything in the world. Like if, like I'm probably in a meeting, if you double call me from a number I don't know. I'm gonna kill you. I'm sorry. There's nothing you can say on that call. We'll not talk to you. That will get through the gatekeeper or whatever at that point because I say that stuff is like my family calls me twice in a row like, hey, pick up the phone.

And if it's obviously my dad or somebody like that, I'll see that as my dad. But if it's a number I don't know, how do I know it's not like my wife or like her car broke down and her phone died or something like that. So I think there's a lot of like crappy tactics out there that people try to like sneak in because the traditional ways of just like spamming doesn't work. And I think what I wanna see in the sales world is really just change and basically up level the sales world again. And someone said this the other day, sales really has been about lately like a place for people to go make money.

like there's so many successful people in sales. We're like, oh, I never want to be in sales. But like I didn't know what else to do. And I knew you could make a lot of money. Like that's the problem. Right? Like I want people in sales that love being in sales that like are used to getting their teeth kicked in all the time because in sales, you get nose a lot more than you get yeses. So like my day in the next culture. Right. Tremendous. Yeah. Yeah. Like it's it's it's not this like glamorous. It's all that people say and like, oh, people like, oh, but you can make so much money.

And I'm like, give it these people the people that are really making a lot of money in this, like work their butts off. And they're doing the right things. And like we need to shift the focus. I would like to see the focus to that, to where it's becoming more of like a profession versus like just an avenue to make money. I love that. And this is why my friends, we hired Jeff at gun I up because as you can see, this dude is different than anybody else you probably spoke to. Jason goes, if I call it third time, does it reset the count? Shut up, Jason.

So very. American, Barrett's been a former guest of the show and Jeff, I think this is great for us and Barrett. This is what I've actually been talking to. This is what we, not just me, we have been collectively talking about it. Gun, I hate talking to people. Give me a website with all the information I need, a way to buy what I want, when I want, people who check in, don't get my business. Well, Barrett, lucky for you, we're working on that. If we check it and follow up, that doesn't move the needle for you. Yeah, yeah. God posted that the other day, like what's the most corporate lingo that you have?

It's like checking in, following up. Hope you're well, right? Like I hope you're not well and I'm not checking it. Well, but that's the whole point, right? Like, Barrett's totally right. Like, we should, we should create a way for them to buy if they want. I think it's a little different in our space because you can't just go buy it. Like, you can't just go buy people. Like, it's not how it works. But, to his point, like, buy, let him buy the way he wants, right? So if somebody comes to your website and they're like, hey, I'm just here for the content, like me, because I used to work at another agency where we did a lot of like comp guides and things like that.

And we actually added something that says like, hey, I'm just here for the content. Like I'm just here to see this guide. I'm not going to buy anything. I'm just trying to do this for research because here's what happens. Like people put a piece of content up there and they think, okay, now I'm just going to spam everybody that downloads it. But then now you're stopping people from downloading that content in the future. So everybody can be bought at, Barrett, everybody has a price. So I think like that's the thing that like really smart marketers and stuff are going to is like, there's less paywalls anymore these days or gates that they need to go to to give their information.

But I think it's like, give your buyers the, or your potential buyers the ability to tell you why they're there, why they came here, what they want you to do next steps because they might just not be ready to be in a motion. And if you try to force them into a buying motion because you as the organization needs it, that's a huge miss. Yeah, absolutely. All right, we're gonna wrap up here, Jeff. Again, thank you for coming on 30 minutes. I knew it was gonna fly by. Four questions, kind of rapid fire. First question, if money was the same, what would you do outside of what you do right now for like your job or just, you know, whatever?

If money was the same, what would I do? Yeah, like money wasn't an issue and you could do whatever you want for your career, what would it be? I always think I would do car content. I love cars. Do you really? Yeah, I love cars. I would probably do some kind of like car content or something like that, just so I could like, like, I would just like, yeah, like, just like test drive all these cars, give feedback on it. I think that would be so fun. And people were probably like, why don't you just do that? And it's like, because I don't have time and that's just an excuse.

But yeah, I would probably do that. For sure. That's awesome. I love that. I love that. Second thing, what do you do? I know I mentioned it, but you can talk about a little more. What do you do outside of work for fun? I train a lot. So I'm big into like endurance sports. I was a swimmer my whole life. Got into marathons. That's how I met my wife, out through marathon running, and then I got into triathlon. So my like release is going for runs, going mountain biking, going for long rides, because I think it's like you finally get time by yourself. And so with kids and everything, there's just so much time for me.

So just to like be able to put headphones in and go get, you know, two hours, three hours, one hour, whatever it is of just your time to think. A lot of times that's where the best thoughts come. Sometimes I just put podcasts in and listen to it. It's just, it's nice to have your own time. Yep, I love that. Third thing, any, so I usually ask the devs any tools, technologies, trends you're reading up on. I guess the same could be said for you, anything that you may be implementing with our team that you can talk about, just any, just anything fun that that you're kind of researching on the side.

I think what I'm researching is, and I think what a lot of people are leaning into is like what's gonna happen with AI. I think there's a lot of AI companies that are not gonna be here in a year or two. I think everybody's saying they have AI on it, but I think would you dive into it what's there? So I'm trying to figure out what AI companies are real and what can we use to really build it. The other interesting thing that I think if somebody can figure out well is intent, how can you start to really find out who's truly kind of in a buying cycle?

a lot of the intent companies today, it's all historical data, so it's really not as up to date as it should be. I think those kind of tools can be really, really kind of generational if we can get them done right. Yeah. Last question. We had guidance counselors in middle school, high school and college, but now it's a built. I don't really have them, that's why the show is called guidance counselor 2.0. What would be your biggest piece of career advice to young Jeff? Don't be scared to ask questions, right? don't don't and what I mean by that is like we talked about a little bit earlier in the show like I Did a loan because I thought that's how you had to prove yourself So long I think it's about not necessarily like getting a mentor Even though that's what a lot of people say but like get people that you can like Talk problems through and like the challenges with like I have a couple of people that I've been working with you know Multiple companies for the last couple of years that we don't work together anymore and we still talk like almost just how work's going, what's the bullshit?

You need this kind of way to vent that you can't vent internally to like, yeah, good things are bad things. And so I think it goes back to building your network or community, just building your small, trustworthy group of people. You think about your really close friends in your life. You can tell them anything. You can do anything with them. They'll trust you. You think like that? Build that friend group of professionals that you trust. They can give you career advice. career advice, they can help with you, you know, through your problems, help you in the oft times. I think that stuff's super important. I love that.

I love that. Well, y'all, thank you again for hanging out with us today on Guidance Council 2.0. We appreciate it. Jeff, thank you, my friend. I'm sure we'll talk probably in the next hour. But y'all have it going, go connect with Jeff. Seriously, I think he's a great follow on LinkedIn, gives a lot of good practical advice. Again, if you send him a note, please add a note onto LinkedIn and let him know that you came from the show. Otherwise, y'all have a great one. Have a great weekend and we'll see you all next week. Peace. Thanks a lot. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode and I am very grateful because you know why?

There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes and I myself rarely finished an entire episode. So I appreciate you so so much for listening. Quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the app store. I want this to be discoverable to others. And the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it. Please, like right now. Unless you're driving, then don't do it. So thank you again. If you need to reach out to me at T. Destin on all social media handles, and I hope you have a fantastic day.