overcoming fear in this economy w/ shruti kapoor, staff eng at slack

full transcript

auto-generated from the audio, so expect a few typos. the audio is the source of truth.

Truth is get the people what they want. Who are you? What do you do? We'll go from there Hey everyone, I'm the Deljour Queen I'm Shuti Kapoor. I am a software engineer at Slack. I've been working there for two years almost two years I Also make YouTube content for foreign developers. You may have seen me hosting fireside chats kind of like this. So super glad that you brought me here and I would love to host you on mine as well. I'm in front-end conning for folks who are new to the community, want to get into engineering, want to get into front-end development. All have been doing front-end development for a long time.

You may have seen me in conference talks as well and I'm going to render a deal and I'm so excited, I'm gonna be talking about accessibility and AI. So excited. It's going to be great. It's going to be great. I'm going to be rooting you on. All right. So lots of coverage today and our little short little lunchtime period that will go by really quickly. You know, again, for those of you who are tuning in, this may be your first time listening. I don't have set questions. I never have set questions. So literally Shruti and I just hung out for 15 minutes before we went live and I said, what are you passionate about?

And she brought up and we're all expound on this about the fear in the community. So Shruti, can you talk about this? about the market right now, what do you see from your friends and colleagues, especially just with this month of January already? Yeah. So right around this time is when last year all the layoffs, all the masks started happening. And so the fear and the trauma has kind of stayed and the trend is kind of coming back. Now we actually didn't even call it a trend. The traumatic time is kind of coming back now where companies are starting to lay off folks again, Google just laid off, Amazon laid off, is laying off.

And it kind of brings back the fear of layoffs again in the entire tech community. And I think it's kind of that time again, where people are starting to worry for their jobs and starting to worry about applying to new jobs. A lot of people who are in H1B lost their jobs. And I had to move back to their own countries, which was really unfortunate. So it's kind of that time again, unfortunately. And I thought this would be a good time to kind of talk about that and how we can prepare ourselves mentally and professionally. I love that. What do you think? I love that.

All right, so what are just some general tips, right? So let's say I'm working on a job and there hasn't been any layoffs at the company. Should I be worried? Like what do you think I should do tomorrow to start preparing myself. Yeah. You know, that's a great question. So from what we've seen last year is that no matter how good the company is doing, there could be layoffs in the company. They could have record profits. Yeah, there could be layoffs. And there is really no way to kind of predict that in the company, unfortunately. You could ask the leadership and they could say, yeah, there's not going to be any layoffs.

And then two weeks later, there's layoffs. So there's really no way to kind of predict it. I think the best way we can be prepared is to just mentally prepare ourselves if this could happen and just like get ourselves ready because we're not going to find definite answers until it does or does not happen unfortunately. Let's talk about networking for a second, right? I mean, because again, I know it's my favorite word and people probably roll their eyes like Dagon, tell you, you're talking about networking again. The reason why I talk about it is because most of us do it very poorly. What do you think are some things to do like right now to help better your chances in finding a job, let's say in three months?

Yeah, great question. So I think networking is actually a really important thing at this point because you may be in a company where you're doing great and you have a lot of resources, you have a lot of, you have a big network, but once you leave the company, that kind of dives there if you haven't really like grown it outside of the company. So one of the greatest things I think you can do is before even layoffs hit is start your network within the company. So everybody that you know definitely add them on LinkedIn. One of the things that I also recommend doing to prepare yourself is asking for recommendations.

And this would just be like written down in LinkedIn, LinkedIn has a recommendation feature. Or this could just be like verbal recommendation that you can write down, you know, just to boost your confidence and you can kind of something like point that when interviews ask you or that could just be a person that you can use as a referral when you are getting interviewed. So asking for recommendations is a great way. And then all of your coworkers definitely add them on LinkedIn and have like a good network or outside of your company as well. So those are three things I would say about growing your network from or taking your network inside the company to outside of the company on LinkedIn.

The second thing I would also say is you also already have friends who are perhaps in companies that may be doing better than your own company if you're expecting layoffs coming to your company. So maybe reaching out and seeing like if there are opportunities available. If you can get ready for layoffs and get ahead, it'll help a lot so that when there's like mass layoffs happen at your company, you can be the one who's already in the interview loop instead of now starting to look for a job. So I would say that also maybe like reaching out to your friends and seeing on LinkedIn and seeing if there are jobs open and if they are looking for somebody.

Yeah, so networking, I think at this point would be a really great point to do. Yeah, and I want to have a few points, you said. stuff, you know, I preach a lot about net net new, like going out and talking to strangers. But I've started to talk a lot more about, hey, just touch base with the people who you actually know, because, yeah, because I think you make a great point. Like, I mean, listen, like everybody wants to work with their friends, right? Like, like there are people I've worked out at my last company that are somewhere else that I would hire in a heartbeat because I miss one of them to death.

And so I think that's a great suggestion. Really make sure you're networking within the four walls of your company virtually or in person. But then also like get them at it on LinkedIn, keep up with them. Because I feel like networking, I'm interested in your thoughts on this. I feel like networking is where you kind of have to keep up with people. And in my opinion, the only way to do that professionally is LinkedIn. Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think networking people kind of gets like a bad rep, but really it's just relationship building. It's professional relationship building at the company, outside of the company.

And that can become your coworkers in the future, but that can also become your friends. So networking gets a bad rep, but I think it's really important. Like you said, if you're working with five people today and out of those three people, you are really great friends with, or you are on LinkedIn with them and you are constantly hearing from them, you would be more inclined to recommend those three people instead of the other two people who really haven't connected and maybe they reach out when they are laid off and they have some need. So I think like a relationship building, you kind of have to put something in the relationship before you like withdraw from it.

So that's the bit I would like encourage at this point, perhaps start putting into the relationships right now, like professional relationships, so that when it's time, you can actually reach out for help and people will be more inclined to helping. Yeah, 100%. Also another thing you said too, The oh not necessarily something you said. I'm sorry, but it triggered my mind So I made a post this morning about when you know, you know Now the post that I made was referring to when you're working out of space and it's becoming toxic And you're not in a great mental place this time to go But but I do have to say after being in the in the people business for 12 years your gut is almost always right and And for me, if you're working at a company and you're just getting weird vibes, like you're just like, some's not adding up and you kind of just pit in your stomach, it's time to start looking.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Because I think there's... Go ahead, go ahead. Yeah, go ahead. Oh, I was going to say, I think you're right, like, gut kind of makes you feel that way. Like, gut kind of tells you like, oh yeah, it's something is happening, something is going to happen and something may not happen as well. like, yes, if you're telling you right now, I would highly suggest start networking. Absolutely. John brings up John. I know exactly who you spoke to because you all tagged each other on LinkedIn. Just had this come up in a coffee chat yesterday. Too many people think networking is making business connections to make a friend.

It's just making friends. It's just making. I always pumped to talk truthy today. She didn't have a really interactive that's on social media, but I've seen her social media. She seems like a really cool girl. And now we're talking. So again, don't overthink it. Don't overthink it at all Brandon, I love Slack. So let me ask you this, Shruti, when it comes to, and we're kind of moving on a little bit, just slightly to like the interviewing side of things, right? So you do a lot of interviewing, and there's a lot of places we'll go, let's talk interviewing, and then we're gonna go back to something else that just came to my mind.

So interviewing, you've been a part of a lot of interviews both at PayPal and Slack. What are just kind of just some general overall themes that you really see people dropping the ball on? Oh, great question. I think one of the big things about interviewing is like people usually think of it as, like them being interviewed, but at the end of the interview, there's also a question where the interviewer will ask you, do you have any questions for me? And that is a really great opportunity to show that you've actually done your research and that you're actually interested in the company, because if you ask a really great, maybe a technical question, or maybe like a product question to the right person, that can show a lot of potential in you.

And I think a lot of folks don't take advantage of that. And sometimes they say, like, I don't have any questions for you. And I would highly recommend bringing at least two to three questions during an interview, regardless of who the person is, whether it's a technical person or a non-technical person, definitely been questions because it shows a lot of interest. Another thing I have seen is, this is, okay, in front of the interview especially, the pool of questions is so small, I feel like, or at least the theme of questions is so small, that if you've prepared on those, you can feel very confident that you're actually gonna get, or that you can be asked questions around the same kind of themes.

So in front end, the themes are, I think if you're going for React, the themes are state management and CSS and some form of interactivity. So I would highly recommend before going in for an interview googling up like what the common front end questions are. And they're actually different from lead code questions. And I think a lot of people prepare for lead code questions for a front end interview, which can really hurt them because front end is going to be really practical. So preparing for those I think will really help. And one another tip I would give is when you're even the, when you're speaking with a recruiter, and I think Taylor, you can kind of say, add to that as well if you feel like, but when you speak with a recruiter, they're a really great resource because they want you to get hired at the company because they're investing so much time in you.

So definitely use them, right? And I think we don't give a lot of importance to recruit around. But I think this is a really great time to show that, or ask them questions on what the interview can be about. And I always, always do this because they are kind of helping me. The one question I would ask, and I think this goes a lot for like fun and interviews, or like when they say JavaScript interviews, is this going to be a data structure question, or is this going to be a data structure slash CS algorithm around or is it going to be more practical JavaScript around?

And those are keywords I feel like because when they say data structure in CS algorithms, that's when you know it's going to be lead good questions. But if they say it's going to be more practical JavaScript, foreign knowledge, that's when you know it's going to be more like react questions, CSS questions. So that is a hint you can take from the recruiter to kind of better prepare for interviews. Yeah, listen, we want to help you. I wanna help you. And I feel like, here's the deal. A lot of y'all get so freaking weird with just asking during interviews. Listen, you are trying to get a job.

If you do not know something or you want more information, ask us, right? If truth is interviewing you, ask. Cause I feel like a lot of us are scared and like freeze up in interviews and just don't wanna ask questions because we don't wanna be a bother. No, like if you're working with me as a recruiter And you like, and I've trained my recruiting teams over the years to like, no, the hiring manager's name, what the actual details of the position are, what they're actually gonna do, not just the job. I never send job descriptions. Like if you ever work with me on roles, I never send job descriptions.

Unless you ask for them, I send actually what the manager wants. Because most of the time, they're two completely different things. And so again, really lean on recruiters. And here's the deal, if the recruiters are just kind of fumbling around and not knowing, And that means they don't have the relationship with the client. And that's a red flag. And that's a red flag. But again, even if you're shoot the end, you need to be needed, you need to hear to kind of rephrase or question a different way or say it. I don't know, but like again, ask questions. It's okay to be inquisitive. And it helps the conversation a ton.

Yeah. I think it's a really great point because the same goes for like technical interviews as well. And I think we like read this online a lot, like ask questions in the interview. But I want to specifically talk about of what kind of questions to ask. So let's say that the interviewer has just given you a question, or put it on the slide or whatever, or the code ban. And there are certain assumptions, technical assumptions, you may make in your mind. There's a button, and then there's the data that might be coming in. One question that you could ask is, what are the inputs and outputs that you're expecting?

I think just thinking of the problem and then thinking of what assumptions you're making in your head, just saying those out loud, I think it's really helpful because at that point, the recruiter or the interviewer can tell you what is right and what is not something that you need to worry about. So I think that is a very big important question you need to ask is verifying requirements? Because what the interviewer is doing is also making sure that when you're actually working with them, are you going to be verifying requirements, asking all the right questions, or are you just going to a Zoom and move on and maybe make mistakes?

So that's number one. Number two is I think sometimes folks get stuck and it's totally okay to get stuck. And the interviewer might be saying something, like some keywords try to help you. I think at that point it's very important to listen to those keywords and ask follow-up questions like, hey, I don't know where this data is coming from or like I don't know what to do at this point. Do you have any suggestions or anything? I think that kind of question really helps because then the interviewer is trying to give you a hint or will give you a hint to help in the right direction.

So that kind of question is really important. And I think lastly, like I also talked about what some questions to ask to interview at the end, some questions you can ask is like a part of the job that they really enjoy, or you can ask them about like a project that they worked on that really helped them grow in their career, or some technologies that they are really excited about. I think just like showing interest in learning more about the role and the kind of opportunities that will provide you towards the end? Is it a really good question as well? Man, that's so good. You just crushed those.

I think the one thing I wanna get across is interest, right? So right now in this market, there's a lot of people interviewing. There's a lot of people that just don't come across interested. And I think the way, so I talked about this, I think I'm following some Monday's episode, because I got one of the people in my community connected with a founder. This one guy in the community is him's dominant, dominant if you're watching Hello. I know Domriek, I follow him on Instagram. He's really passionate about hiking. He loves outdoors. He loves the environment, right? So on Monday's chat, I was saying like, hey, you should look up environmental focus companies or hiking companies and go chase down those type of companies.

Right? For me, while I was a recruiter, I knew my next steps is I wanted it to be a part of the dev community so badly, right? So what did I look for? I eventually got into the talent marketplace side within the software engineering space, right? And like that led me. So go with your passions, because I will tell you this, if you're super passionate about Slack, like Brandon posted, like I love Slack, and you have specific reasons why, like listen, I've had crazy stories about teams or whatever and Slack's helped me. Like, and you tell Shruthi this with your interview with her, Shruthi's actually gonna be like, okay, I think this guy's probably gonna wanna work here better than the other person because this guy's actually invested in this other person.

Totally, yeah. And that brings a great point as well. Interest is really big, I think, especially in tech interviews. A lot of companies also have technical blogs. And if you can actually point to a blog that you read, maybe that's helped you understand the code base or helped you understand the technical initiatives. I think that is a really great way of showing interest and showing that you actually care about the job, especially like at this point when there's so many, not at this point, but when there would be match layoffs and people, there would be so many people. I think every bit of interest that you can show is going to really set you apart.

Yeah, absolutely. Natalie comes in here. I love that you were suggesting the questions for the end. Two comments up coming, going back to Truss and your gut, Jeremy, I got the pit in my stomach a year before my company declared bankruptcy and closed the doors. I regret not listening to my instincts again. For the most part, your instincts are right. If something feels off at the company working for people or being cagey, they're not sharing the information that you need, there's some smoke and mirrors. Get out. Sometimes I've asked the interviewer if they will share any details in the meeting confirmation email. You may be surprising in a decent outline of what they will ask about.

I think this is great. You know, one of the things that we've been working on, me and my team are trying to feel 10 principal engineer roles right now for a company. And one of the things that we're really trying to focus on is like, hey, can you give us an outline of what the interview style is? Now, this company isn't wanting to give us a time. There's pros and cons. I can see their side and then I can push back, you know, with our viewpoint because they don't want to basically give the whole entire answers away. But I do think a lot of times, especially if you work with recruiters, we should be able to find this out for you easily.

So but definitely ask that, hey, what am I about to get into? Is there anything I can do to prepare? I think that's a fantastic LinkedIn user. Let's see here. What else? So when it comes to, I am interested, Shruthi, I mean, obviously, you know, you are active in the community, you know, you do conferences and all that stuff. your thoughts on networking events conferences, do people have to do them? Should they do them? Just give me general thoughts on that. Yeah, I honestly feel a little hesitant to network network because I don't know. I don't really know the right questions to ask. I don't really know like I don't really know a lot of small talks.

So I feel like really hesitant. And actually that's a secret of why I actually started speaking at conferences because I wanted to talk to people but I really didn't know what questions to ask. So I just started speaking at conferences so people would come and ask me questions and I'd be like okay my job is done. If you ask me a question I'll answer it but I don't have to initiate it. I love that. I love that. So if you're introvert like me speaking at conferences. I think networking is actually, like somebody mentioned in the comments, it's people think of it as like creating business relationships, like business connections, instead of making friends.

And I think that's a really great point because if you approach it as like making friends, I think it becomes a lot easier, especially at conferences. And at Randall Adir, you kind of feel the same way. And I've noticed this is other conferences as well. A lot of the folks who go to conferences there are there to learn, but at the same time, are also there to meet other people who are in the community, have similar passions. So I think if you go to a conference and you really want to network with people, there are some questions you can ask them that kind of help to create that conversation or help to break that barrier, which is like which talk did you like the most?

Which technology are you working at? And if there is a technology that you are passionate about, you can ask people, are you working with this at your company? Another great way to network with people is to speak to the speakers because they put up a talk up and that's a really great talking point for you. You can ask them questions about their talk. You can ask them how you can get to know more about this topic and things like that. So I think networking is important, but if you approach it with the idea of meeting new people, just getting to know more people, I think it'll feel a lot less cringy than making business connections.

And for the conferences, I think it's a great place to meet like-minded folks. It's a great place to meet potential job connections as well. But I would recommend that if you are going to a conference and you're really nervous about it, a really great way to practice networking is actually going to a smaller meetup. People at meetup are super friendly, also local. So there's a lot you can talk about. You can talk about some favorite hikes or whatever you like to do. And the speakers are also more, there's less speakers, so also you get to have more time to speak with the speakers on the topic as well.

I feel like it's like a networking is like a muscle and you need to keep practicing. And there are some hacks you can use to kind of practice that muscle. Yeah, it's very hard. Kayla, I started speaking for the same reason. Yeah, yeah, and honestly, you know, That's why I started creating content. One of the many reasons why I started to put out a ton of content is because I'm really bad at coming up to you. But if you come up to me and you're like, hey, I really like the blog post you put out with email newsletter, you put out about X, I'm going to be like, I'm going to be, it's going to be so much easier to talk to you.

And the same thing with where the truth is just said, right? If you go see your talk in render, on accessibility, you know, and you come up here and talk about, hey, I have a few more questions about it. You're gonna get, you're gonna get a great conversation with Shruti, right? And it's gonna be a lot easier for her. It's gonna be a lot easier for you as well. So, no big fan. I, yeah, Colton, she said this. And I was like, I was like, this needs to be a quote. If you're an introvert, like me speaking conferences, I love that. It's more assertive. I love that so much.

I also know of a great small conference to ease into it. Yes, K-Ludd, Magnolia, JS. Fantastic conference, been two years. It's wonderful, can confirm. All right, so shoot the as we wrap up here again. Tom flies when you're having fun with friends before we kind of go on our rapid fire, any last words of wisdom from you, to the community around the economy, the market, job searching, networking, interviewing, anything. I'm kind of gonna leave you with last little bit of nuggets here. Yeah, I think I'll give you the same kind of advice that I've been giving myself in this kind of months, which is we can't know if and when we will be impacted by layoffs, but the best we can do is prepare for it.

So this may be a good time to start thinking of other options, maybe polishing up your LinkedIn, polishing up your resume and collecting data or like collecting projects that you worked on and putting it in your resume to polish it up because, God forbid, layoffs hits, you're not ready and everybody's looking for a job and it's gonna be a very anxious time. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I do have a question that came in real quick from TikTok. Colleen said, I have two internships in software engineering and graduated in August. Should I be good for my first job? What are your thoughts? January. Well, I would say if you have a job lined up and signed, I think you're good.

If you don't have a job already signed and then actually follow up with you. They have two internships lined up, they said, for this semester and then our graduating August. Okay, I think internships, if they're lined up and signed, I would say you're in pretty good spot. I have however seen, yeah. And I have however seen some internships get canceled as well just because the company has been hit by layoffs so bad. I would say you're good, you don't have to be too anxious, but I would still say be prepared in any case because I have seen internships get canceled too. Yeah, yeah, Colleen, I would agree with Shruti as well.

I think you're doing much better than most people, but this market right now is so volatile. Volatile, those internships could go away quickly. So just, again, just be prepared and keep networking. All right, oh, here we go. So here, LinkedIn user, when you go to put quantifiable impacts you've had on your resume, you're going to kick yourself if you don't prepare them before you. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. do this before you get laid off. Yeah. Can I tell you what, trying to write your resume when you get laid off in your brains all emotion, you're emotional and angry at the world does not work, does not work.

So definitely do that now. Sure, these be wrapped up four questions for you. First question, what would you do if money was the same? What would you do for your job outside of tech? I'd be an interior designer. Really? Yeah. I love that. And I'm enjoying designing. I love that. I love your movements as well. Okay, fantastic, love that. Second question is, what brings you joy outside of coding? Creating content for people and finding that it helps somebody. Yeah, same girl, same. What tools, technologies, frameworks, trends, are you tinkering with researching, reading up right now that you wanna share? I am chunking a lot with AI resources, AI things.

Specifically, my job involves working to make sure Slack is accessible and something that I want to make sure is how can we use AI to improve accessibility? I love that. I love that a lot. Last question that we wrap up here and again, thank you all so much for hanging out with us today. We appreciate it. And so the last question, we had guidance counselors. The show is called Guidance Counselor 2.0 2.0 because we had guidance counselors in middle school, college, and high school. But now as adults, we don't really have a guidance counselor go to to ask for advice. What would be your greatest piece of advice that you would give young Shruti in regards to her, your career?

Don't take things too seriously. Take experiments. I love that. I love that. Don't take yourself too seriously. Fantastic. Sure, thank you so much. Where can people find you? Where's like the best places to find you? And just plug anything that you got going on. Cool. You can find me on my website, shuttikapoor.dev. I was lucky enough to get a .dev site. That's awesome. You can also find me on YouTube, shuttikapoor as well. And on Twitter, I'll shuttikapoor as well. There you go. Follow her. She's great. Again, go check out Render, we will both be there. And if you want to talk AI accessibility, mess is Shruthi, I'm sure she'll probably get back to you because again, she's passionate about it.

Again, the whole point of networking is matching up and asking about what's happening. So do that. Also, Colton, great call here. Also keep your notes off for computer. I lost login immediately and all those metrics. Yeah, be careful about that. We'll shoot these down real quick so you can set a body off there. Again, thank you so much for tuning in. Tomorrow, Unicorn Finders, hang out with a really cool startup tomorrow. And then Friday, it's just me, myself and I. So, y'all have a good one. We'll see y'all tomorrow, peace. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode, and I am very grateful, because you know why?

There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes, and I myself rarely finished an entire episode. So I appreciate you so, so much for listening. Quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the App Store. I want this to be discoverable to others. And the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it, please, like right now, unless you're driving, then don't do it. So thank you again. If you need to reach out to me at T.S. and on all social media handles. And I hope you have a fantastic day.