a tough last year so let's talk about it w/ david neal sr dev advocate

full transcript

auto-generated from the audio, so expect a few typos. the audio is the source of truth.

Cool. All right. Nothing to run my mouth. David. Let's get the people what they want, man. Who are you? What do you do? And we'll go from there. Hey Thanks for having me Taylor. This is a this is really quite an opportunity and I love what you're doing. I love you. You've kept this up for for quite some time now. So glad next month. Yeah, thank you for having me on the show. So my name is David. If you don't know me, I go by Reverend Geek everywhere on social media and my website, ReverendGeek.com. I am a software developer, turned developer advocate, developer relations, developer marketing, developer advocacy, all that stuff.

stuff. And I've recently, as in like the last seven or eight years, become an illustrator. And I do a lot of talks and I use hand-drawn illustrations as part of that. And I fell in love with it. And that's now become, you know, part of who I am is doing silly illustrations of people and things and dad jokes and all the fun stuff. You know, we talk a lot about branding and networking on the show, you know, bringing on a lot of dev advocates and we talk about the importance of it. May I tell you what, between your beard and bacon? Like, that's David. When I was says David, you know, my beard and bacon.

So there you go. Bacon flavored beard balm. Have you ever thought about maybe like, you know, copyright and that? I need to. Yeah, I should probably do that. Oh, no. I don't know. I don't know. I really want me smelling like bacon when she kisses me. But hey, you know what? Who knows? Maybe she will. I don't know. Yeah. I really leaned into the personal branding of like the beard and bacon. So I've got bacon stuff like all in my background. I love that. I don't know if you can see all that. But yeah, I started growing out my beard around, I think it was 2016.

And, you know, about six or nine months into it, I was doing a lot of conferences and it just became like, well, I guess this is, there's no, you know, I'm at the point of no return. So many people know me because of the beard. Now I can't, I can't go back. Yeah, it would be startling if I saw you without the beard. I would be, I would be very taken aback. All right, David, I hard hitting questions. thing in the morning. I've always wanted to ask you this. I always want to ask you. So I'm doing it publicly. Very, very excited for it. How do you like your bacon?

Right? I have not heard you talk about this. I haven't heard you post about this. I think this is incredibly, this is probably the most important thing we're going to talk about this one. Well, I will say that limp, floppy bacon is an abomination. What? No, no, no, no, no. No, it's not, David. No, it's not. Are you serious? It's got to be crispy. It's got to be like to that point where when you put it in your mouth, it just melts. It just, you know, it just. Yeah. So all but but not like I got it. Top of you to give it to me.

I'm good. No, no, no, no. That's that's awful. So I never could get into oven. bacon because if you take it right yeah if it's thick cut bacon and you put it in the oven it doesn't matter you can you can cook it until it's burnt and it will still not be crispy. There you go crispy bacon crispy bacon for the win. David is right. Crispy crumbly tellers wrong dead wrong. Richie come on man. Alright well I'm glad I asked. Alright here's another question. question. What's been like, do you have a place, a restaurant, maybe it's just what you make, do you have a brand, a type of bacon that you love, or or a restaurant that really makes a good one?

Anything like that? Yes. Well, my go to is rights. WRI GHT. You can go. I went, I did this thing one time where I took a, it's called like a 30 day bacon challenge and I ate nothing but bacon for 30 days. And so I cooked. Yeah, I cooked a lot of bacon. I ate about four pounds of bacon a day and I lost 18 pounds in 30 days. That's like the ultimate keto. And yeah, so I was cooking, you know, large, large quantities of bacon every day. And so I was going and trying to try and all these different kinds of bacon and rights.

Pecan smoke was my absolute favorite, but I haven't been able to find the pecan smoked anymore. So it's either Hickory or Applewood. As far as like restaurants go, So there's things like Benton's Bacon that's really, it's so strong. It's like. It's so strong. I do like it. I, it's in small amounts. Like it just. Okay, good. So, friend of mine that I used to work with in Nashville, he would say it tastes like it's been cured in a barn fire. It is so strong. But frothy monkey, which I used to go to quite a bit, they have an omelet called the architect where you can basically build your own omelet.

And every time I would get bentons bacon, peppers and onions and feta cheese, and it just amazing. That sounds great. Richie comes in and goes, David, you're still in cardiac arrest. Go to the doctor. I love that. Bacon for 30 days. You probably still have Lauren left over from that four pounds a day as well. Yeah. David comes in taking notes for the grocery list. All right. So you're probably tuning in. You're like, all right, Taylor, the title for this is a tough last year, but you're talking about bacon. So we're not going to talk about bacon for the whole 30 minutes, even though we probably could.

David, let's dive into the last year, ma'am. I mean, you know, it's kicked me in the mouth. I think it's kicked you in the mouth. I think it's kicked a lot of people in the mouth. I think I saw one of my recruiter friends who's got a pretty large following put out a survey I linked in. And it was like, I think 1,200 or 1,500 people surveyed that they went through a job, 75% of those people went through a job change in the last year. So I mean, it's been brutal for a lot of people. If you just kind of want to talk about the last year at a super high level and some thoughts and then we can dive in a little deeper.

Yeah, so for me, the past 12 months has been super humbling. Is the best way I can describe it. Cause I've been pretty successful in my career. We can talk about community and networking and stuff. And that has been such an amazing asset for me. And in the past, it's been pretty easy. If I decided, hey, I wanna, you know, look for a new job or something like that. I wouldn't have any trouble at all. I could, you know, have my pick of options and have lots of really cool conversations and, you know, pretty laid back about it. But last year, as so many others were, I was laid off last summer.

And I thought, well, yeah, no big deal. I should be able to make, you know, I've got lots of connections in the tech industry. I had no idea. Of course, there were so many people that were laid off that I was in competition with more than usual. And I didn't have, I think at one time, I don't know how many, I use a the Kanban board to keep track of all the things that I've got going on and the jobs that I'm, especially. And I think I was interviewing one week like 15 different companies. And it was brutal. It was the bar for interview processes and requirements and the different types of projects.

Some of them, I had to say, look, this sounds like an amazing opportunity, but I don't have the time or the energy to complete your requirements for the job interview process. You want me to do a 40 hour project seriously? Did you really get one that's that? I got. Yeah, a 40 hour project and they like, oh, we'll pay you $25 an hour. Like, hmm, that's not what I normally get paid. And I'm like, I'm sorry, you know, it would be amazing to work for your company. But if you can't find a different way to assess that I can do this job, then a 40-hour project, then we're done here.

I have this whole body of work. You want to go look at some of the stuff I've done and make some judgment? Anyway, it was incredibly humbling and so exhausting. And really, when it came to the end, it was like, I need a job, and I am so tired of this. I took a job that looked great on the surface. And to be clear, the company I went to work for is an awesome company. There's a lot of really smart, amazing people that work there. And they've got a really amazing platform, and they're doing great things. And I expect that they will be very successful.

But the role that I took was not a good fit. And I think it was a combination of some assumptions that I made and just some miscommunication, misunderstandings of what was to be expected. I was looking at like, oh, this is a really cool brand. This would be a lot of fun. And then, but the role itself was not a good fit. good fit. And so I was a month into the new job, I was like depressed. Like this is not working out. This is not the kind of work that I want to do. This is not bringing, getting me excited to do this work.

So the last six months for me has been a lot of soul searching. And on a personal note, full transparency, I lost my mom in December. Not many people know that, but that's another contributing factor. Like life happens. Things are happening on a personal level that other folks don't see. And there's a lot of contributing factors that go into, man, I've been struggling. I've really been struggling on a personal level. I haven't been able to work at the level that I'm used to. I haven't been able to get as motivated and excited about doing things as I've been in the past. The conferences that I go to that have normally brought me so much encouragement and excitement and energy that they haven't as much.

There is one exception I would love to talk about, but that's just something I love to geek out about. And about a week ago, I was prepared to talk to my boss at my previous company and say, here I had like this long document of like all the soul searching that I had done. Like I knew I wasn't a good fit for this. I knew I wasn't performing like they needed me to. And I had like all these you know ideas and suggestions on how we could fix the situation. And I get on a call with him and immediately the head of HR joins the column like, oh, well, I know where this is going.

Yeah. Like, man, it's not the way I wanted it to work out, but here I am. I'm now on the job market again. Yeah. Well, first off, I am sorry for your loss. I did not know. So thank you for sharing and I appreciate that, but I am sorry for your loss. You know, there's a lot to unpack here. Let me ask you this. What are you doing right now to help yourself, like trying to get through this, right? Because I think a lot of people, I think it's gonna resonate with a lot of people. And so what are you doing right now to do a little soul searching, anything that seems to be working for you, I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

Yeah, I took some extra time off over the holidays to really sit down with my wife and we've had lots and lots of conversations. She's helped to kind of, she's asked the kinds of questions that really have dug out of me like, what is it that I really want to do? What brings me joy and what helps me to come alive? To talk about past successes and to use that as encouragement to like, yes, I could get back to a place where, you know, I've got, you know, some kind of role that's really meaningful to me. And so fast forward to about two weeks ago, when I'm getting ready to like, put all this stuff together to talk to my boss about how we can move forward.

My wife asked me, the issue goes, would you be willing to see a counselor? And I immediately broken broken to tears. Because that's tough to admit. It's tough to say, I need some help. And so that's one of the things that I haven't taken that step yet, but I've got like, she's helped me to to to get a list of of counselors in my area that were within, you know, driving distance. Yeah. And, and yeah, I've got a short list of of folks that I'm planning to reach out very soon. And, and you know, see where that see where that goes. One, one that's a a particular interest to me is they list themselves as a life coach.

And I thought, man, that's what I need right now. I need some life coaching. I've done coaching and mentoring and managing teams and all that stuff over my career. It's like, I could use some of that right now. Oh, 100%. Well, and I think you bring up a good point. I think, you know, I think, especially the individuals who are at these conferences like yourself and speaking, I mean, we're drivers, right? Like we're just go, go, go, and you work at a certain level. And, I mean, this happened to me in 2018 when I crashed and burned and hit depression for the first time in my entire life.

Like, you know, my little, my counselor, my, our marriage counselor was like, you need to go find a counselor because I just was in an awful spot. man when I feel like is men, I can only speak on the on the male side of things, but I feel like as men, we're just always looking out for others. And we're so driven our careers that feel like sometimes we like poke our head up and we're completely empty. Yeah, we're completely empty. And I feel like that's when that's when we need to go rely on others, especially a counselor, because we can very much feel very alone, very, very long, which is what what my keynote was at that conference last year, which is, because again, having these conversations, everybody feels alone and that's just not the case.

We're all going through it together. We're all going through it together. And that's the tendency of men in particular is to be self-reliant and to isolate. And to have this false sense of pride that, it's like, I can do this. I don't need anybody's help. And the other lie is like, well, nobody understands what I'm going through. Like, yes, there are so many people who are going through the same thing that if you would open up and connect with others, you'll soon find some support. 100%. So you said something that I'm glad you said, and I've been talking about a lot is taking some time off, right?

Because I feel like a lot of people are in a really bad place and they just try to force it, right? They go back in the job search and their life is weighing on them and it can kind of come through the interview process. What are some other realizations that maybe you found just even about yourself with the job search that could potentially somebody else could learn from you or maybe even think about? Yeah, well, one thing that's become crystal clear for me personally is how much I enjoy writing code. How much like I you know there's so many other things that I do as part of my role in developer relations.

It could be writing content or going to events or speaking and you know I love to do illustrations and stuff whenever I can and there's just just, there's so many different activities. But anytime I get to sit at a keyboard and get to focus on writing code that creative process and the rest of the world just disappears. When you get into that zone, the same thing can happen with illustrations and music for me as well. It's like that's a little bubble of this world where I can just play around, I can have fun, I can solve problems and just for a few hours at a time or something like that, I can focus on this thing and not have to think about anything else.

seems silly because I've spent, you know, my pretty much my entire career writing code, doing stuff in tech, and to just now come to the realization like, man, I really love doing this. And, you know, every time I get an opportunity to like be heads down writing code, I have a good time. And I come away most of the time excited. Sometimes you've run into, you know, of course, brick walls or whatever that can be super frustrating. But you know, I'm pretty patient. I have the gift of, you know, that's one of the things that's helped me so much is like, just keep trying, keep trying.

But yeah, that when I was working for my previous company, Pluralsight and I was doing a lot of content and videos and streaming and and all this stuff I had this opportunity where I got to create a trivia game for AWS reinvent and I was a idea from from my boss and I was like yes, I want to do that and I spent took me about two or you know close to three months of of you know mostly coding. And I just I had so much fun. And then to see it being used and being so successful and so many people who who delighted in that and and we're excited to see it and use it is like this is what this is what I was made for.

That's awesome. I love that man, I love that. So you got away from the code then. Yeah, to some extent. And especially in this last role, like I was talking about how it wasn't really a good fit, that was like the eye opening thing was like, oh wow, I've gotten, you know, this role puts me in a position where I'm no longer developers aren't my target audience. Software is not what I'm expected to create. There's nothing about software development. That's what I thrive on. At this stage in my career, I'm not I don't want to build an entirely new community or invest in an entirely new thing.

I want to continue to leverage the skills and community that I already have and that I've invested in. What would be your biggest piece of advice for folks who have gotten laid off or looking for a job right now and are hearing this and be like, man like, you know, this, I don't know if I've ever sat down and figure out what exactly what I wanted. I mean, what would be your advice to them? Yeah, one is, it is tough. I can now understand the what a struggle it is that, like I said, this has been a very humbling experience for me. And now I, now I to empathize other folks who are really having our time interviewing with does if not.

In some cases I've seen people say that they have interviewed over a hundred companies in their search. That is just mind boggling. So I would say one, keep going. You know, you just, you never know where that breakthrough going to come. There's, and sometimes, yeah, you may have to like take something that's not ideal in in order to be able to get to that next level and that next step. Finding of folks in the community who are in similar situations or maybe not similar situations but who like to geek out about the same things that you do that can be a source of encouragement. the inventory that I took over the last few weeks of like, what have I done in the past?

What has made me like come alive that I've been so excited to do? What are, you know, help identify some of those things? was like, oh, it may be completely, you know, you can't see the forest for the trees. Like me, it was like, oh, well, that's completely obvious. And I hadn't really, you know, articulated it until I realized how important that was to me. So, you know, taking inventory of what you've done in the past that's helped you to be excited and hopeful about the work that you were doing that can help you to identify who is it that you want to work for.

Another thing is one of the things I'm trying to do this time around is like, okay, these are the job openings that are out there. I'm not so excited about most of them. I was like, I don't think I want to work for this company or whatever. Well, what are the companies you would love to work for? Yeah. Even if they don't have a job listed on their careers page or something like that, it's like, what are the companies that you would just absolutely love to be a part of? that list and then what is it about those companies that excite you? One, you never know if you find someone and reach out to them and say you could end up landing a job that never gets published, that never, you know, just making a connection saying this is the kind of, you know, I would love to work there, you know, what could I do?

It was like, oh, we've been thinking about hiring somebody for this team. Like, okay, you get first shot at being that candidate. And then also, are there other companies that have similar characteristics or profiles to that? It's like, okay, well, it's not. I'm going to take Microsoft, for example, Maybe you would love to work for Microsoft. That's just been a life dream of yours. Well, what is it about Microsoft that you really like? Then are there other companies that maybe not so well-known that have some of those same characteristics? It might be like a stepping stone. That's another thing too, like career development is like every opportunity is another step towards something amazing that you haven't yet experienced.

I love that. Absolutely. That's so good. I had a conversation like this a week or two ago on the show and one of your shots of Dominic, he's not here this morning, at least per the chat. But he and I, we were talking about this thing where companies want employers who are pretty hyped up about what they do, right? Because there's so many people and if you have specific passion, so Dominik's passion is like hiking in the environment and doing stuff outside of them. So I made an intro to him with a startup that I know that's trying to help the environment. But if he's reaching out to these folks saying, hey, my passion is all this, that's going to help him stand out more than if I did.

I hate the outdoors. I like, I just, I'm not a camping type guy, right? I, my camping is like in a Hilton, right? I'm just going to admit it. So for me, like I'm not going to have the passion to work at, you know, environmental friendly companies, but dominant is right. So dominant is going to be the better. I can't because he, because he is going to have more enthusiasm. He could pull for more parts of history. So again, I think that's a great point. I think that's a fantastic point. Um, uh, why can't I see other comments? I don't know. Probably LinkedIn's buggy James to be totally honest with you.

James is good to see you. Um, what else, uh, any more thoughts on the job search? Cause I do, I do want to hit public speaking real fast before I wrap it up. Sure. Let's talk about public speaking. Cool. Awesome. All right. Public speaking. So you are obviously a notorious speaker. You've been in the conference circle for many years. Um, one of your best talks is, was that how to public speak without barf in your shoes. No, yes. Yeah. So like it's, it's, it's, it's a fantastic talk. Um, you said something backstage. I'm going to let you say it about public speaking and what it can do.

So can you just say that thing and then let's talk about public speaking from us. I think what you're doing for your career. Yeah. So I have become a just totally convinced that public speaking or any significant involvement in community is a superpower. It is something that sets you apart, that creates connections and opportunities that you would never, ever imagine of. So I got started in public speaking, I guess, you know, more than 10 years ago now. And I, if I could go back and talk to me then, Yeah. Like, and give myself a sneak peek of like what the possibilities are, what the opportunities are that are a direct result of getting involved in the community are.

I mean, it is absolutely amazing. One of the stories I love to tell is that years after I was already, you know, involved and giving lots of talks all over. I participated in some hackathons and every hackathon that I participated in, my team came away with the prize. And to the point, I was like, I was feeling bad for the other teams. It wasn't because we had some better idea. It wasn't because we had accomplished more. In one case, I think we had absolutely hit a wall and didn't get a thing done the entire weekend that we were hacking on this idea. It was the fact that I had presentation skills, that I had the ability to speak to the judges in a way that was convincing and it is a superpower.

And that goes with with like negotiating for your team, talking to executives, talking to other, just any type of position of influence. It's given me confidence. It's given me so much that I can't even begin to describe how what an amazing skill and asset it has been it has been in my career for the last 10 years. Every job up until recently that I've had in the last 10 years has been a direct result. Well, I can say that about the last couple of jobs too. I've been a direct result of my, you know, involvement in the community and my reputation that I've developed. Yeah, yeah.

I think if I were to go back and have to do it again, I think public speaking and writing are like the two skills in today's world that I use the most. And I'm not even that good of a writer, but if I were to go back and do it again, absolutely. So no, and I totally agree with you. I 100% agree with you. I think the networking side is tremendous and that you get from public speaking, that is. So I think 100% agree with you. All right, any last final thoughts, I got four questions for you, any last final thoughts before we wrap up.

Just general David's words of wisdom. Well, I end every one of my talks with you don't need permission to be awesome. And that's a slide that's on all my presentations. And I want to encourage people that whatever it is that you do whatever you like to geek out about, you know, for if it's coding, for example, 99% of the world will look at what you do and think, wow, that's magic. How do you do that? How can you possibly do that? I'm one of them. And the power of technology connects us with the entire world. And so every one of us has opportunity that we can make a positive impact on other people.

And so that's what I always want to encourage people is that use the gifts that you have to make a positive impact on your family, your community, and around the world. Don't just do the bare minimum to get by. Find some purpose for what it is that you have. I love that. Dev comes in. Dev's on the show tomorrow, y'all. But Dev goes like it looks like David talked for hours. I know it's the same. And Alice, because I have that sticker on a coffee mug to see it every morning. I love it. I love it. David, last four questions again. Thank you, my friend, for coming on.

Thank you for being vulnerable. Thank you for being transparent. It means a lot. I love these type of conversations, so I appreciate it, man. So last four questions. One, what do you do outside of work that brings you joy? Well, I got a couple of them hanging on my wall. So I do, I play a lot of music. I lived in Nashville for 20 years. I love, love music. Either playing it or listening or going to live shows. But yeah, music brings an incredible amount of joy to my life. I love that. I love that. If money were the same, money was not the issue.

What would you do for your job outside of tech? Illustrations. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, if I could wave a magic wand and be able to make an equivalent income doing illustration work. I would do that right now. I love that. You're very talented at it. You're very, very talented at it. Thank you. Somebody who can barely draw a stick figure, you're very talented. Third question. What? I was drawing stick. So here's another thing. Yeah, I was drawing, I was drawing stick figures seven years ago. Really? Like very poorly drawn stick figures. No, no joke. So it is a skill that you can learn just like any other.

That's incredible. Just like anything else. Like, yeah. So I always want to let people know that, yeah, what you see today is the result of a lot of practice and a lot of patience. And you can do the same thing. Two things I didn't know about Dave before the show. One, 38, four pounds a bake in a day, four a bit, and two that he started drawing stick figures that this was not a thing. So that's awesome, man. That's awesome. Third question, let's get nerdy for a quick second. Tools, technologies, frameworks, languages, something that you're messing with, reading about that you're interested in right now.

Well, I have been doing a lot of Node.js for the last several years. View has become like my favorite front end framework. It just clicks for me. I know React is so super popular right now on the front end, but I spent years working with React. But to me, Vue is such a pleasure to work with. It just fits me better. Yeah, that's about it, I think. I love it. Yeah, you were like the original OG Node Guy Nashville. I remember that whenever you see a roll at Vaco, we're like, just call David, see if he knows anybody. It was no, you were kind of like the original adopter of Node and Nashville.

And then last question, David, I'm just gonna wrap up here. Again, thank you everybody who showed up today. We appreciate it. Yes, James Quik, Dev is on the show tomorrow. I'm really excited to talk to him about his journey from college to speaking in his first job in tech. David, so the show is called guidance counselor 2.0 because we had guidance counselors at school college high school, but now as adults, we don't really necessarily have a guidance counselor to go to. What would be your biggest piece of career? I know you've said it early on, so you got to give me another piece, but what would be your biggest piece of career advice to young David outside of the public speaking thing?

That doesn't count now. Yeah. Give back to the community. Find the, you know, public speaking is just one facet, but there are so many ways that you can get connected and involved in the community. I wish I had done that sooner. And that's what eventually led to me getting to speaking was getting involved. Whether that's open source or blogging or sharing your experiences. However that looks, that is what you need to do because people want to hear your perspective and learn what you've learned. Absolutely, I love it. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode, and I am very grateful, because you know why?

There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes, and I myself rarely finished an entire episode, so I appreciate you so, so much for listening. Quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the App Store. I want this to be discoverable to others, and the only way that happens if you take the time right now and rate and review it. Please, like, right now. Unless you're driving, then don't do it. So thank you again if you need to reach out to me at T.S. and on all social media handles. And I hope you have a fantastic day.