finding a job in today's market w/ kelly vaughn, dir of eng @ spot ai

full transcript

auto-generated from the audio, so expect a few typos. the audio is the source of truth.

and it says says R live but we're going to wait we're going to wait what's going morning Kelly and I are like uh we're just we're just uh we're struggling we're I think Kelly I think you're struggling more than I at least I got sleep I I mean I did sleep I got like six hours yeah six hours for me though was still like nothing wa to my LinkedIn then we'll go live okay morning everybody please comment say hey if if you are all right all right there we go sweet all I just got notification we good there and I just got notification your little

YouTube okay sweet all right cool Hello everybody good morning welcome to uh Monday edition of guidance cser 2.0 with Kelly vaugh uh very excited because uh Kelly's great Kelly's good to see you it's good to see you I love that intro yeah Kelly's great we're great we're kind of like uh Kelly's like the big sister I never had so um I think you might be older than me what I thought you're older than me you're just wiser than me yeah but you're wiser let's just go that way okay you're just wiser we'll accept that how old are you I'm 33 oh [ __ ] I

am old you damn that's crazy did not know that I'm a 1990 baby are you really uhhuh wait how are you in 90s baby I'm at 89 and I'm two years older than you when did you broke November ah that I'm a Scorpio I love it I love it gota wait a while for me I don't I don't know what that means uh anybody who knows the astrological signs I have no idea what that means all I can handle is the INR because it's got like eight nine numbers and that's it so I got to keep it simple there's not that many okay it doesn't

matter yeah yeah we're not get that though all right so you do post a lot that on Instagram and uh and I'm like I don't know what she's trying to say right now oh I honestly like also don't know what I'm trying to say but they're fun to post post a lot of Scorpio memes on the on your link yes yes if if anybody if anybody can break down astrology for me let me know because everybody I've tal ked about astrology and they say like I think I'm a Pisces what's what's February 21st hold on I think you're I think you might be right on

that line I'm a Pisces yeah barely February 19th is the start of Pisces so you're a cby Pisces I'm I'm a what you're a cby Pisces I thought you said a husky P I was like I mean you're not wrong you're not wrong oh boy good morning good morning everyone's like the [ __ ] are they talking about Thomas good to see you good morning uh say hey we'd love to hear from you again the reason why I tell people say hey is this a networking platform you can hang out with wonderful people like Kelly um and uh and also ask good questions um but

please say hey we' love to hear from you we're not in the metaverse yet if you are lurking the Shadows I don't know if you're watching which is which is uh I get sad so please don't make me sad on this Monday please comment say hey we love to hear from you also ask questions uh the reason for this so I've done this so this is four years I've done this for four years now um and uh and and the reason why I bring people on like Kelly like everybody I bring on is for you to ask questions and and to be honest with y'all

y'all have been lacking in questions lately and and I don't know if it's just because I've gotten so good at interviewing people I answer all your questions but please ask questions if you have them especially for Kelly she is a hiring manager we're going to talk about the job search specifically from a hiring manager perspective today so you can really kind of get the nuts and bolts of how it goes um and then uh what else say hey like I said want to give a shout out to my partners this morning first off that conference Clark cell shout out that conference um uh Wisconsin is

happening um I will not be there because I will be waiting on my uh second child to be um hopefully delivered soon um and then uh second off um uh that render so Kelly you'll be at render I'll be I will be at render yeah I'll be a render I'll be a render I can't I don't think I can announce it yet but JC it's good to see you uh my wife we will both be present there yes is most definitely scorion I will be there Kelly Kelly do you know do you know what you're doing every render I do know what I'm doing but

it hasn't been announced yet so okay cool Kelly's doing something cool I think you already told me Kelly's doing something cool so you should be there uh yeah check them out use the code gc20 I don't know if I have a good discount code or not but um if I do and it works let me know if it doesn't uh let me know and I'll try to get that hooked up you will get a discount code you will get a discount code yeah just just let me know if you want to go to render let me know and I'll make sure it happens from a

discount code perspective I'm not providing free tickets uh J's it's good to see hear from you but again rer thank you for picking up the podcast second year in a row uh also if you watch this too I want to celebrate you um throw up in the chat if you've done something that you're proud of lately um if you got arrays promotion title change deployed code on a Friday to burn the house down whatever it was I want to celebrate you this morning I feel like we're always on to the next thing Kelly I want to ask you this I need to start asking my

guest this brag on yourself for a second what are you proud of that you have done lately that you want to share um well there is a message in slack that I have not read yet that is in a specific slack channel for uh our sock 2 Auditors and that is something I'm proud of because I am wrapping up my second season of a sock 2 type 2 audit which for anybody who has had to go through that um you you earn the scars that you get from from from going through the audit process so that is that is probably what I'm most proud of

at the moment that sounds very boring but also I would be proud of that I mean all my entire I was telling I was telling to earlier this my entire life for the past few weeks has been just policy hell um you know going through the sock to a process I'm updating all of our policies for you know our Hippa certification and all that good stuff so uh so much fun 10 out of 10 highly recommend I'm I'm very familiar with the hipa documentation at this point I love it I love it Chris it's good to see you and another Chris good to see you

as well um also too if you're wondering what black pigs are this is my ice hockey team's uh pullover so I'm wearing that this morning so um friends yes friends we love friends on a Monday morning all right so Kelly for people who do not know you um because everybody knows you on the internet I feel like um who are you what do you do and then we'll go from there uh yeah hi I'm Kelly I am director of engineering at spot AI it's video intelligence startup um I I'm actually approaching two years it'll be two years in the next couple of weeks now um

Taylor's Taylor's been along for the ride the entire time and before leading up to it so he's uh it's not it's it surprising that I'm hitting two years but um been in software engineering for a very long time taught myself out of curve when I was 11 went to school for something entirely different I have three degrees from the University of Georgia go dogs uh always um I am also a really big Detroit Lions fan there you go leave it there yeah so I want to talk about this for a second so you know I kind of ha Kelly first off she's a Georgia fan

I went South Carolina now y'all's baseball team is good now y''s baseball team used to not be good now he baseball teams everything is good at Georgia right now I feel like being a Georgia fan you're like in your like Renaissance age so it is a good time yeah it's a good time I also kind of gave you heck because I saw you post something about being a Michigan fan and I was like seriously you can't be all of the fans you can't be the fan that likes all the teams that are doing good this year a nd you go no I actually grew up

in Michigan which I did not know that yeah how where where in Michigan uh about right here oh boy here we go small a small town called tumy um yeah I grew up in Michigan I moved to Georgia when I was 16 so I my my grandparents work for University of Michigan I am my earliest memories are tailgating for Michigan games really yeah I have I have I have baby pictures of me just like decked out in Michigan gear as well my first ever gymnastics meet I went to college gy mnastics actually at University of Michigan was Michigan Georgia which is really fun are you

serious that's awesome I love I love that Chris is just all hype up here oh absolutely michigander I love it um all right so uh lot to talk about today um want to get into I I would say we talked about this last live but I want to talk about it again first off because you haven't been on in a bit but also twoo I think it's very applicable I think how to be approach as a hiring manager I think a lot of pe ople out there in today's world they're like because I get a lot of questions I know you do because you and

I text all the time it's like you know know I see a job posting should I message the hiring manager should I message the recruiter should I apply first like what are your thoughts on kind of that whole workf flow uh for job Seekers so as the hiring manager when I get a message from somebody who has applied to the role I definitely do appreciate saying like hey I I just applied for this I'm really excited about it where things start to go kind of wrong is when they're like oh can I get 20 minutes if your time to talk about the qualific ations and

how I am you know I I'd be a great fit for this job um if you looked at my calendar and it's funny because I literally just put a newsletter out about um cutting back on on or like escaping the back-to-back meeting house yeah I which by the way was great I actually read that one and I reposted yeah I saw that thank you I appreciate that u m I don't have time to have these meetings with everybody who is interested in the role especially in this season where so many people are unemployed and looking for jobs like I I empathize like I completely understand

how difficult it is to be job hunting right now what you can do best if you are if you are interested in a role that I'm hiring for and you have specific questions for me just straight up ask those questions on on like a LinkedIn DM like I'm much more likely to respond to those than I am to say oh yeah here's 15 minutes of my time so you can sell yourself to me I just I I I just don't have time no I know I know so so you're saying so you're saying that you would rather have folks um you would rather have folks

ask questions reach out like specific questions in the DMS before they submit the resume or after they submit the resume I'm okay with them submitting the resume first okay um I have had some people that ask if I can refer them for a job that I'm hiring for and I'm afraid I cannot do that yeah exactly yeah I mean listen folks I mean like a lot of y'all go for the referral without even knowing the person that's not how that works yeah that's not like if you message Kelly and Kelly doesn't know you how how how's she going to speak on your behalf like that

makes zero sense so y'all need to cut that [ __ ] out because that's annoying um uh for for me I I I think I think being specific in the DM is incredibly important what how many times do you think I'm kind of curious with this just popped my head how many times do you think it would take somebody to kind of message you off and on before their name becomes familiar enough where you can see them in the submitt process does that make sense you see I'm trying to follow here is it a you think it's uh you think it's five DMS you think

it's a month like what what do you think that Cadence is it will typically take like a few a few messages over the course of a few weeks okay um because when I open a rol e especially for like a soft like a full stack software engineer mid-level senior doesn't matter when I open a roll I get hundreds of applications within the first week right like it is it's it's you know untenable the number of applications I actually receive and so it usually typically takes a few times for me to like put name with resume um one thing that does help me as well when

I get those messages is like hey I just applied um like around this time because I can then go back and look in the list and I can look for your name and I can and kind of go back from a a calendar time wow words um I'm going to go ahead and uh finish this guy yeah um I can I can kind of look back in chronological order um to see when you applied okay awesome awesome um and so from from the inter from the first round interview perspective is there is there stuff that folks just are really just bombing um or really just

really messing up um when it comes to just the the the first few rounds um I've had some interesting conversations as of late I will say um um for me one of the things that is a just I understand you're applying to a lot of places but if you get the company name wrong um that's not really it's not a good look so so you see that you see that enough where you brought that up I mean it's happened more than just oh it's happened more than once I've also you know received cover letters with the wrong company name I've received multiple messages from people

with the wrong company name like it is it's it's a when I need like the work we do requires very deep attention and detail sure as most as most jobs do yeah and I you know occasionally I will get like a you know a wrong name or something like that and they will follow up be like I'm so sorry I you know obviously I'm I I'm all for efficiency like you want to use the same message multiple times great if you mess up at least own it yeah yeah and I think so I I scheduled this tweet to go out today and it's really funny

we talk t alked about it too um Jason okay okay I'm here what did I miss everything Jason everything and Thomas I'll get to your question here in a second um but I I I schedule I put this a tweet together this morning I said I said the people who get the job aren't necessarily smarter than you they just do the small things better than you yeah and it's a small things like knowing the name of the company it's like using the correct company on a cover letter it's maybe get getting Kelly's name right or spelling her name right which I'm sure she probably gets

different spellings right oh all the time yeah and and like for I I've gotten used to the misspellings of my name at this point it's annoying but it's not the end of the world for me um but one thing I will do especially being the hiring manager or um being sometimes like the quote unquote final boss of the interview process I will ask you know tell me about how your other interviews went like tell me how how the process has been for you who all have you interviewed with what what interviews particularly stood out and if you cannot name a single person you interviewed with

like I assume you took notes because I think taking notes during an interview is a very important thing because especially if you're applying to a bunch of shops um I have I have had candidates specifically only be able to tell me the names of the men that they interviewed with and completely forgot the names of the women I noticed these things yeah it's it's crazy it's crazy uh Thomas comes in here where do you as a hir manager find people to refer on your own I will say for myself the more I connect with people people in Discord or LinkedIn I find natural ways to

get referral situations yep I I mean my network I I've been building up my network for a reason and when it comes to hiring and I post something my I know my network is going to share it with their Network I there are a lot of people out who have second third level connections who know somebody who's going to be a good fit I also will go through Linkedin and I will look at keywords on you know like I don't have LinkedIn recruiter so I'm just using the regular world you know lay person uh searching on on LinkedIn and I will find candidates who have

the the green the green uh job looking for job looking for work kind of badge up um so uh when it comes to um resumé stuff I want to touch on this getting a lot of questions around rums right now um linkedin's uh cover letters um what do you like to see what do you like to see on a resume um do do you read cover letters uh let's let's let's answer those two questions first I do read cover letters um really what do you like to see in a cover letter because I have no idea people ask I think cover letters are especially important

if you are changing careers if you if if you're like going for your first job and you're trying to make a connection of like why would this resume make sense for this job like you know there's a connection there but it might not immediately stand out in the resume and so the cover letter could really be good for bridging that I've also seen really great cover letters just kind of dive a little bit deeper into why they're so interested in this job that shows that the way the cover letter was written is very clearly customized for like spot as a company versus the templated cover

letter I don't require cover letters by any means I'm not going to fault you if you don't have a cover letter but if you are if you have a very specific case I'm just going to assume that you're submitting a cover letter for a reason now I have had cover letters dissuade me from proceeding with the interview process for candidates as well yeah 100% And then then resumés like what are like like how long do you think you look at a resume for before making a decision I'm anywhere between 30 seconds to a minute so I don't do like the 10c 10c scan or anything

like that yeah it goes a little bit deeper than that but I w ill say like first thing I do is I'm going to scroll to see how long it res if pldr 10 Page Long resume I'm probably I know I'm not going to read all of it that's interesting okay so so you you immediately try for you immediately try you immediately look at length first and if it's too long I look at what do you think a good length is for a senior person for a senior person I mean you can typically fit everything you need on a couple pages I think three max

I think three is perfectly fine yeah I would say I see to more more often than that I would say I mean get over the the the original advice I was like keep it all on one page like there's so much Nuance to the work that you do and the level of detail that really you know piques my interest when I'm reading a resume is like I want to show I want you to show me impact like what did you and not just what did you do but what was the result of you doing this this work and you can't do that on a one-page

resume unless you have had one job yeah I mean yeah I mean in my buddy Alicia who I do the UN ghed series with he's I mean he's senior and he was a director of engineering he's a senior product owner at Microsoft now and he's big on one Pages I'm just like man like if you're a senior person like there's no way yeah I mean I think there is a way but like you need to know how to write a resume really well like there there was one CTO in town that I placed um a few years back and he had a one-page resume but

it was like three bullet points it was like the two major accomplishments he did to move the needle and then all the Technologies he touched and like that did pretty well um but for the most part most of y'all can't write a resume in just one page and and it's it's the the amount of time it would take to optimize for one page is not worth it that time when you could be networking when you could be applying to jobs you can be making conversations with people versus trying to squeeze you know reduce your margins and cha nge the font size and the line height

to get it to fit on one page yeah let me ask you I just thought this question I've never even asked you this before and I know this could be a long answer but like we don't have to go into all the detail DET if you were to get laid off tomorrow what could walk me through super high level of kind of what your workflow would look like um first i' cry yeah yeah that's fine that's fine there's nothing wrong with that and I tell people all the time like absolutely feel your feelings like spend that time it is very traumatic absolutely um no so

one of the things that I often preach is you should always be updating your resume when you're doing a when you're approaching a new quarter for your company when you're doing performance reviews like annual by annual whatever they happen to be update your resume yeah because you never know especially in this market when you might find yourself without a job yeah at no fault of your own companies fold all the time and so you need to really be prepared for that and so I like I'm I'm in that season of updating my resume right now because we're about to be in performance review season and

so for me when I'm reflecting on okay what were my accomplishments over the past six months I'm going to go right over to my resume and copy paste them right in there yeah 100% that would that'd be where I where I would start I would make an announcement when I'm ready to job hunt saying hey I'm I'm this is what I'm looking for um I'm you know ready to start whenever uh let me know what you have and really really leverage my network I love it I love it what um uh when you say leverage your network like kind of curious like what the next

question would be here um like are we talking about like you would be in the DMS dming people do you think you go yeah okay yeah I I and and also I'm in some some like slack ORS that are specific around like engineering leadership and so I would most definitely be looking in like the uh referrals channel in the do you know anyone from Channel and the Rand leadership slack to say all right these I'm this is where I'm looking at also of course the jobs and the remote jobs channels that are on there but basically what I'll use is I will use that those

as a reference and then go see what else they have available and then then go to my network and basically type into LinkedIn search let me see all the people who work at this company where are my connections do I have second level connections same with Twitter yeah I love that I love that you mentioned something about engineering leadership before we go on any further or do you want to take a quick intermission report talk about uh you like how I did that talk talk about your engineering leadership cohort that you're doing right now I think it's really really cool um so yeah definitely want

want you to plug that right now yeah yeah thank you um this this is sponsored by no um so I I I run a a course called uh building influence for engineers and EMS so it's not just for engineering leaders but it's for anybody in some sort of engineering leadership type role whether you have the title or not where you want to really build and gain influence within your organization so we're looking at things like how to how to evaluate and how to identify opportunities for growth for your team even if they're peers how to handle conflict that means how to communicate up and down

the China command and those with your peers those with direct reports and those with managers and those who are like diagonal to you as well those are like the cross functional relationships are so incredible like so incredibly important to build especially if you want to build influence so knowing how to have those conversations and discuss trade-offs and things like that and then lastly we go really deep into feedback because feedback is something it's an art and a lot of people are not naturally good at giving or receiving feedback so t hat's that's it's three three modules over the course of and the next one is

actually I'm holding it over a weekend um so it's going to be uh over a Saturday and Sunday about 3 hours the first day two hours the second day I'm still kind of playing with the times um and that is going to be the weekend of April 23rd which is I'm pulling up a calendar to see specifically what those days were because I just changed it oh April uh 27th and 28th okay awesome so if you're in if you're interested I can send you the link what what what is the link what is the L I'll just throw it up oh it's uh long uh

throw it in the private chat and then I'll I'll I'll copy back yeah yeah so go check that out again I mean I I think if you're an engineering leader that listens to this episode in the future on the podcast or obviously watches this in the future um I listen obviously I'm dear friends with Kelly but I think you know I try to associate myself with individuals who who truly get it in terms of leadership and and Kelly is one of them and um and I think you know your psychology background I think you do a great job of explaining things um you know as

somebody who's non-technical you've never made me feel dumb ever um which I appreciate that um and so for those of you who are listening um again Kelly is a friend and I am a little biased but I do highly recommend that you check it out if you want to remove the bias look at the look at the website and look at the reviews because these are unbiased reviews yep I love it I love it all right I'm gonna I'm gonna add the banner if youall check out cool all right as we move on um so talk a little about job search stuff um from from

a from a hiring manager side of things um I I do want to kind of get uh I do want to I do want to get nitty-gritty with the hiring and interview inside what what do you think that most hiring managers are really lacking right now in this market just in terms of hiring and moving quickly as in like the the process they're following at yeah yeah like like like what are your thoughts on that just kind of what you've heard from friends or you've seen or whathot everyone wants a seat at the table to say their piece into any thank you thank you I've

said that for the longest time and I thought crazy but for real I think I really feel like that that's it yeah no there's there's absolutely no reason for somebody to have to go through seven eight nine rounds of interviews yeah there's there's no reason it's a it's it's it's driven by ego it is driven by a lack of trust in your process and it's driven by a lack of confidence in your ability to attract and and hire strong candidates and for for individuals who have hired somebody in the past where it did not work out for some reason their first tendency is to apply

you know to to extend the interview process and lengthen it and add more people and and get more points you know what happens when you get more and more seat seats at the table and more people giving opinions you're going to get really convoluted feedback yes it's going to be you know where this person is my Top Choice it's going to be somebody else's bottom Choice who is actually working the most closely with these people yep 100% and and and I know I really wish have you used vendors at all in the past like any sort of recruiting or anything like I was also one

there you go yeah so I'll say this I'm curious of your thoughts like if if there is a vendor that you trust and you have been working with there's also no reason to add more processes because they're already putting people through the paces exactly they around the block before they know exactly what like their job is to really understand what it is you're looking to hire for and they're going to find the candidates that are going to you know make the most sense for you well and what's crazy too and like and listen I've been on both sides of it right I've been on the

Staffing side where like we don't Technic we don't Tech out people and at gun we have a technical staff where we do Tech out people and you know what's crazy is H managers don't care yep like like like as much as as much bitching as I have gotten over the course of my years like well recruiters don't take people out I'm finally at a company that Texs people out and companies still want to put them through their own Paces yeah and it's like well then why are we even doing this like we're literally investing in in in prev vetting people and it's just obviously I

don't care it's like take advantage of it yeah it's a trust thing and if you don't if you don't trust that if you don't trust like gun to actually bring you good candidates then why are you using them in the first place yeah don't use us I mean please hire a gun and also or you know work work work with Taylor but also um trust the process yeah and that's the other piece of it is a lot of things that hire like one of the things that hiring managers often get wrong if they leading the interview process is interviewing is a skill that you need

to build and if you're if you have people on your panel the hiring panel that are not good at interviewing you're not going to get good results out of it and so people really need to understand we actually created a document when we're going to be uh interviewing for a new role is we will say this is what we're looking for here's who's on the panel this is specifically what this particular candidate or uh what they should expect interviewing with this individual and so you know exactly the structure of feedback you should be giving for each candidate so it's also in the same format for

every single candidate so again it you're you're reducing the amount of you know mental load on your own self because you know exactly what you're planning to interview for 100 per.

yeah it's so true and again um and also speed too like y'all have like what six or seven steps but y'all get through it within two weeks right our goal is to get through it very quickly yeah exactly yeah 100% which again I'm fine with having more than a few rounds but also like they're int they got to be intentional right like like you guys have it's like internal recruiter call like what's what's y'all's structure yeah typically for for engineering roles it'll be the in the the recruiter screen just for the basic like here's the job does the salary line up you know that kind

of like basic basic qualifications hiring manager screen is going to go a little bit deeper into does this person you know have the technical the the Baseline technical capabilities to do this job do you feel like they're going to be good working with the team because you obviously know like the the culture of the team and things like that well they be a value add to that yeah then we do the um the we have a small panel that they meet with the product manager they meet with two engineers at the same time and it is a system design interview there is no coding exercise

during her process because there's no reason for it uh another hot take another Hill I will die on and then lastly is uh inter doing with one of our engineering leaders like senior leaders like um my boss BP or uh co-founder awesome I love it I love it um any last words of wisdom before I uh give you some rapid fire questions any last words of wisdom for job Seekers anything anything else you just want to give off chest yeah I mean if you're job hunting right now I know it's extremely stressful especially with the number of applicants were you know applying to these jobs

like you're up against a lot of people take time for yourself yes this is you know we are we are past the days when you say like interviewing and applying for jobs is a full-time job the mental load it takes for you to apply for jobs and to go through the amount of rejection you go through it is not like mentally healthy no to treat it as a full-time job no and I know you really want to get something like I completely unde rstand that and I'm 100% with you but you also need to take care of yourself mentally as well y absolutely I I

I do want to Echo that you know I was out there before I got laid off last year the job search should be a full-time job I mean I was out there saying that and obviously I've changed my tune tremendously I I I think I you got to be the best version of yourself for the job search so if you spend your entire day locked up inside white knuckling the entire process that's going to come acro ss when you talk to a Kelly or myself when I when I interview you right and it's going to give bad and so like work out take time for

yourself I mean Kelly's big on running and marathoning and pelaton and all that stuff like I'm big on Ito I have my Pelon Studios L there you go I love it um so like like you got to take care of yourself because that's going to allow you to stay fresh and also sane through the job search and also too that's a whole another conversation about like work life balance like I'm trying to like pull myself like I'm trying to get away from the computer during the day and and like trying to give myself more breaks to keep myself fresh yeah I have the amount of

heavy work that I'm doing as of late that's not hands on the keyboard coding it is like I said reviewing policies and going deep into like compliance related things I cannot sit and stare at a computer for so long I just can't do it yeah absolutely yeah LinkedIn user the interview process is a major reason people don't want to leave their current jobs so they will endure yeah I mean I agree with that I've had so many senior engineers in my DM saying they don't even want to look for a job because they don't want even go through the job search process so I get

that 100% um all right last few questions and Kelly you've been a you've been a a guest on the show a few times so I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you kind of some different ones um first off uh What uh what is what is a book you've read a video you'v e watched just a piece of content that you've consumed recently that you really like I mean related to this stuff or can I say Vander pump rules no you do anything anything anything anything speaking of speaking of taking breaks and going away from the computer yes yes V pump rules also the most recent Season

of Love blind was pretty phenomenal much better than season five I don't know how y'all watch that [ __ ] my my wife watches it's cringe TV uh real quick this is a great question number one driver that's that's fantastic would be interesting to hear your about side negotiations listen this could be a whole another topic and I got a hard stop in two minutes that's always a Hot Topic do you tell people straight up you are not experienced for the high amount or you're asking or vice versa he should never say I am I'm undeserving of a certain amount never ever ever say that

um no I mean salary negotiations you should you should most definitely do that I think I think negotiating your salary if a company resends an offer because you negotiated the salary that is not you wanted to work exactly um I will say if there is a very fixed salary range that's published in the rule and is discussed in the the the recruiter screen as well um to go back and say actually I wanted like an extra 50 Grand you've wasted a lot of people's time yeah yeah you gota have specific reasons you got have specific reasons and yeah yeah so uh number one driver if

you want to talk more about this send me a DM and I'll give you some more information um Kelly we'll end here any last final thoughts I appreciate you a ton I appreciate you all think of one more question um got any fun exciting travel plans coming up so for the next 50 minutes I'm going to explain my schedu no I have uh I'm flying to Warson sat I'll be there for a week then I'm flying to Florence from VSA I'll be there for about a week and a half or just Northern Italy in general I'll be in New York at the end of May

um I will be in um obviously going to render but that's going downtown Atlanta I'll be spending a month in uh in France later this year awesome and so that's currently what I have booked also DC will happen too I love it I love it cool all right y'all we all have a good one Kelly stay back striby to you but you all have a good one tomorrow we have the wonderful chantastic on Twitter coming on talking about his job search which he's been documenting it's been so so good so you have a good one see you tomorrow morning 9:30 a.m.

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