are you scared of programming w/ francesco ciulla

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Francesco, give a quick background about yourself or the people tuning in who may not know you. Who are you? What do you do? You do a lot of things. So give me the rundown Super quick. I'm Francesco developer advocate at the redev. You can see it here. I am 40 and from Italy Rome I I've passed as a volleyball coach then I switched to tech I've been working full stock for the European Space Agency for three years And now basically I'm a clown on social media. So Twitter YouTube Public speaker that's it. That's the shortest interest I can make You've been rehearsing that in front of your mirror before you came on this afternoon So man, so I want to know a little bit about Francesco And this is kind of a little off of what we've been talking about but I want to know just about you as a person Man like what got you into programming?

What's kind of your story because I don't even know that and and and I would really love to know that Yeah, so of course I'll be super quick. So I always have to compute us. Whatever I was born. I hear some people starting like that. I say, oh my god. And I have no hostel start sweating when they've been like, they like these. So I would say these on purpose now. So I own the Commodore 64. I've been the first in my class to have an internet connection when I was 12. What else? I played the Diablo 1 Starcraft like all the games. but my life was not coding.

I always thought that coding was something boring. I still half think that they're a bit less, but I have a past, as I said, in sports, jeans, running, things that are maybe a bit a bit more entertaining. But basically at some point in 2015, as I was 32, I decided to switch career to tech. And the fun fact that Taylor is that I thought I was one of the few people, because usually you don't switch your career to 32. I felt like, I am probably one of the few people who are switching to tech when they are not, not exactly my teenager years. And then I discovered the ones that joined social media.

So many people are switching to tech. Just on here, people are trying to switch tech when we are not exactly like 15, or 16. So it's, this really, it was a relief, I would say. And that's the shortest version. So, programming, something interesting, I coded in Visual Basic, and at 15, I took a C language course to impress a girl. Long story short, it didn't work out about C programming. So, it didn't work, it didn't work absolutely. It didn't work as... Not even JavaScript, you chose C. She couldn't care less, so she couldn't care less, but at least I learned some C programming. So these is one of the things that initiated me to.

That is going on. This is going to be a little, little funny, little, a little, a little grave, no pun intended, but on, on Francesco's tombstone, I'm going to say, try to impress a girl by writing C. There you go. So, so let me, so, all right. So, so, so when, so when did you switch to tech again, what age? So technically I got my job when I was a 34. Okay. 34, 35. So it's, it has been, let's say, two or three years of full focus on tech. I mean, I made some websites in the past, but I don't consider that being like professional about coding.

So this is where I consider like getting a salary as a developer. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. On website. So I called, I consider that, you know, my initiation as a professional developer. Yeah. I do want to get to, I have a question, but I want to get to, you know, I want to get Jason real quick, great time to link to your journey stock. I want to go shout to Jason. Shout to Jason and the crew for this just amazing. I really wish we could like conference call people in live because I would want to bring Jason up to talk about it. But Jason, congrats to you and the crew.

I was texting with Jason this morning. A ton of money raised. I know Francesco, So you were a part of it. Do you want to kind of give some flowers real quick to Jason and his team? Yes, so huge congratulations, because I know what does it take to organize an event, even to organizing a coffee chat. Sometimes it's hard to organize an event like in a single fingers time. So super quick. I think that many people joined because we like to talk about JavaScript and coding, but we really shown that tech is not just tech. I'm stealing the JSON motto, because this is exactly what it is.

Also in my podcast, I try to show that we are like human beings and we are trying to support these. And yeah, this is a right thing to do. So check JSON account and that's it. So you can still have, you can still donate and help someone doing something good if you have the opportunity. highly recommended that no worries of this as like, not 101,000% guaranteed that this will go in the right place. Just rooting for you before Jacob and his wife. Yeah, man. Yep. Absolutely. Jason props to you. All right. So let me ask you this, Francesco. So, you know, you obviously were quote unquote late, getting an attack as some people would say, man, talk to me just about the mindset.

Talk to me maybe about some words of encouragement you'd have to others because I mean, I've had some people message me They're like I'm 37. I'm 45. Want to get into tech Is it too late for me? What are your thoughts on that? I I love this and I'm trying my best Now because even when I was like 27, I thought like it was too late to switch to to tech and I would say this by the way So when it was like 27, maybe too late to to switch my career to tech I really had a couple of ideas, things after development. I said, maybe it's too late, 27.

So in short, I started at 32. So you know what? Something simple that I did that started to change my life. It was this, it's like when you go to the casino. So you need to like stop thinking about what you bet so far. You're like, you sort of reset. Like, let's see what I can do now with my life. Like if I was 18, what I would do now, I will do now if I was 18 and that's the best mindset because otherwise sometimes you know we do something because we did something in the past. We stay in a toxic relationship because we have been already some years, not make it is now, but just to give an idea sometimes we can we do something just because we have something to lose but that's the that's a you're basically like sabotating yourself.

You said if you were a set, they say, okay, now let's do what I can do now with like having like zero, let's say being influenced by the past, then you make the best decisions. And it's the same concept that I applied to my YouTube channel. I started my YouTube channel when I was 37. And now I have a silver button here, I can brag if you want. So it's all about this. And this mindset helped me so much. So otherwise, we think that we are old. Okay, so for something, maybe for being a football professional player, maybe it's too late. Just for something like working, even starting making videos, like think that you just need knowledge, you can start at any age.

You have friends who start at like 40, 44, 45. Yeah. So it's a, I always just, it would just be one year older. So that's, that's it. And I can say that it's for me. You need to be motivated to do this, but it's doable. I'm here, like I'm a living proof that it's doable. What was your motivation, man? I mean, obviously, everybody has their own. What motivated you to kind of get into this new line of work? Yeah, this is a great question. So for me, it was more like, let's say, sorting out my life. Because I started a CS degree in 2010, so like some years before.

But I was not like interested in coding, programming. In my mind, I said, okay, maybe at some point I'll do something more involved to math, science, and so on. So when it's 2015, I decided to let's say, okay, I started this as a degree, I want to finish it. And then I will see. So it was more like shorty things out. You know, sometimes we have these things like open, that they are not resolved. So it was not about, I didn't have an idea that I could even, so much money to be honest. It was more about like sorting out my life. This thing is open, it's not done yet, let's do it.

And then I will see. And this approach really helped me because when we have our mind free and then good things they start to happen. We get lucky. They don't basically. Yeah, absolutely. So I want to kind of get into the kind of the title of this live show this morning about are you scared of programming and you and I were chatting backstage and it's just a clever title to get people's attention. But I ask you backstage, I was like, what have you been seeing? What have you been hearing again? For those of you who are watching now or in the future listening, I don't come up with set questions.

I want this to be a conversation among friends. And so I always ask my guests, like, what are you seeing, what messaging are you seeing? And Francesco, you said something pretty interesting that you saw. So let's go ahead and start out there. What did you see online, who said it, and what was obviously in reference to? Yeah, I think that many things happened. One of them, it was that I think the NVIDIA and CO, it said that like new, like young people should not learn programming. It's not worth anymore. it didn't say exactly this, but just to give an idea that is something like this.

Then we got Dev in AI, not an AI programmer, but an AI being a programmer, which is different. And so, you know, these things are popping out, and we know that AI is a thing. It has been a thing. Since the 80s, when we had the Terminator movies with this version, but now they are slowly becoming something for real. But like, people have been saying that we would have been replaced by AI since the 80s. So now probably it's time, but we are like 40, 45 years later. The thing is that it's important to understand that we should not ignore it. There are many tools GitHub, copilot, charge, GPT, there are like coding AI, because there are many tools.

I'm not mention them all here. But you know what, I am that old that I remember that when in 1998, 1999, Google went out, we were saying like someone said like, okay, we don't need like programmers and people like doing research anymore because now we have Google. So I remember this like Google will replace everything. Now, in the years, something changes, but we We still have hope as biological beings. You know what's the real problem, Taylor? I want to also address what I think they are real problems. In the past, I don't know, when we had the Bronze Age, the Iron Age, a single person didn't really care because I will get old.

They also were dying like at 30, so they didn't have this issue. Now we have starting to get this issue. So in our whole career, our life might absolutely change. And so being ready to adapt quickly is super important. So I'm also doing this, like social media, active on YouTube, the platforms. I'm not ignoring them because I know they are powerful, but they take time. So we'll see. I would like to also know from people in the audience, I also want this to be an open discussion because I have many people asking me that I like, is it worth programming? Should we just stop and give up?

I'm not giving up. So I'm still being here for a while. Nick goes, tell me more about Skynet for Inchasco. I love that. Yeah, I mean, I think we're an interesting, you know, I think we are more headline readers than ever in today's world, right? And I think this, I saw this happen with the layoffs and big tech. Listen, the market's not great, but people are still hiring. We're just not the clip of what people are hiring, but again, the headlines took over. I think it's the same thing with AI, right? The headlines are taking over. AI is coming for our jobs. Now, I was listening to a fascinating podcast yesterday about automation and robotics around like Chipotle, like Chipotle, and a lot of these places are thinking about using like robotics for manual labor, but when it comes to AI in long term, I think it's just an assist to the coding.

I don't think it's going to take away the coding. Yes, so I think that we admit that they are powerful tools. We all admit these. The thing is that these tools should still be used by a human. I made this example. If you had a startup, let's say that you invest $10 million, would you give the AI the permission to change the columns of your databases or not? Because I don't know. I will probably prefer to have an expert and pay an expert that uses some AI tools. Because at that point, who can you even blame, like I said, or correct things? Like AI is something that should be used by someone.

Also, these were my concern also for things like dev in AI. I don't even know if that video was real, but we had some point something strange came out that it was a sort of fake. But let's pretend that it's real. OK, we have an AI real program. The thing is that even these tools, even if they are automated, they still need to interface with someone. Like we do with our manager, or we maybe at some point we change something. In order of my concerns is that AI is powerful, but no, let's say that tomorrow or today, there is a new, like, a huge issue with some npm package.

The AI doesn't know this immediately. They might just do their own things. You know, this, I remember the log4j issue came out some years ago, and we need to be ready to adapt the code if something strange happens, or maybe in a company they do something absolutely weird. They make a programming language paid. I don't know. We need to be super responsive. We can't just rely on any tool that just writes code. And that's very important. DEI is taking over on the boilerplate, but we have been taking over a boilerplate in the last 40 years. So that's something to take care of. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

Nick goes here, Nick goes, I've said it before, but I think the people that will be left behind are those that don't embrace AI tooling. I mean, let me ask you this, y'all. I mean, for Francesco, you, but anybody's watching this. I also had a co, because the Gun IO discord, I posted this question and I didn't get a lot of answers. Outside of GitHub Co-pilot, what other AI development tools are people using day to day right now? I mean, are you using anything outside of AI Co-pilot, or GitHub Copilot right now? Okay, in my case for me, for using JUDGEPT4 and GitHub Copilot, I'm set for what I need to do.

But like I create tutorials, I do RAS stuff, I do Docker stuff for me, it's enough. I've used other AI tools, but probably, let's say, probably you should ask two people who are, I'd say, I don't know, senior developers, senior developers, they are actually coding every day, it's to be a different story. I like what Nick said that embrace AI tooling. I'm usually not a huge fan of tools. For example, I'm here like a pen and papers list. For example, here of things, but maybe I am a bit older in my case. It depends on the job that you need to do. It's probably you should understand depending of your role, and see if there is something very specific.

But yeah, I think that the NIC is also talking about these tools. So you don't need to be an AI tooling tech Twitter influencer. It's more like knowing the tools that you need to know. Yeah. Also, Jamie, I started to use one of the time. Yeah, I and then Claude, I've heard Claude hugging, Chavez, and heard of that, chat GPT, obviously. Yeah, yeah. Somebody goes 11 labs, some trust in being AI. Curious about that. Ian comes in here. It says, definitely do not give up programming. We still need new devs, regardless learning to program or build software in general. It's a fantastic way to think about any kind of problem.

It's not just software. I love that. I love that. More of a mindset. I love that. I think this is an interesting comment from Harsh here. Aye, I won't take your job, but a person using it could. Interesting. Yeah, 100%. And then Dominic comes to your shots when new to I heard about at the front end conference called brainstory.ai. Curious. Awesome. Love that. Um, so, uh, for Nintendo, I do, I do want to, um, kind of move into the next part. You know, I'm seeing a lot of rust these days. And no, I'm not talking about the rust on the fence line. Talk, talk to me high level.

Why is it hot? Why are people? Because again, I'm starting to see companies come out of the woodwork and ask for that and go. So I'm curious to hear your thoughts. Yeah. So that me, Barack, my knuckles, okay. And now I can start. So I, you know, by default, let's say I would not need, let's say, Raspberry for my coding stuff. I'm in DevRel, so I'm going to do the next day, two other spaces and other stuff. But I've been fascinated by some of the things. I can just say these just thinking out loud. I don't have women about the ballot points. So a programming language is as important as how much is used.

So something that the first thing that caught my attention, it was a tonstack overflow. It was the most loved programming language. It reminds me like when I read the Tesla S is the most I love the car. Like it was like five years ago. I said, this is something because if people say that they love it and they have big numbers, there should be a reason. Like, I don't know. Like if everyone is going there, there is a reason. Maybe it's not for me, but it makes me curious. When I see a restaurant that crowded with people, it's like, maybe they serve a good food there.

I don't know, but it seems that it's working. You know, it's a, it's this effect. So I would say that this was something that made me curious about that. Another thing that made me curious is that there was like an online book that it's a very good way to start. For example, if you wanted to just read and do stuff. So it's, let's say, not complete, but it's a great way to start. There were good videos to get started. And also, there are some, say, crucial features. For example, it doesn't have garbage collector. It's focused on system programming. So just to make it like in a one line, just to try to sell it, it's like C++, but without having to allocate memory manually.

So it's almost as power as a low level programming language, but it simplifies the developer experience. Now, state this, I will still die on this hill that I will not advocate to learn or rest as your first programming language. This is even against my interest because I have to get for it. I would agree, I would agree. I would say it should not be your first programming language for other reasons. And I think one of the reasons is this, Taylor, that in many tutorials, even in my tutorials, I refer to other programming languages. So you will be like, I'd say, frustrated by saying, this is like JavaScript.

If you don't know JavaScript, you don't understand even the references. So I think it's a good to have a second or third programming language. If you first of all, if you have time and if you wanted to bet on the future, because for example, Python, let's take part on as a language. Python is not that new. I think it was I think in 1995, if I'm not wrong, you can check it, check it and then the chat to is probably wrong. At some point, it exploded. And now it's like on the top, but for a while it has been, you know, on the low. So my bet, my personal bet is that in two, three years, Rust will just jump on the top three, four, use the programming language.

It's not that used now, but if you have some extra time, I hope you have, you can spend some of your time, you know, to get the earlier train, just to arrive them just a bit earlier than someone else. So this is my advice. If you're reading a programming language, you are looking for something new and maybe you want to make you know this bet This might be a bet for you. I also personally love the fact that is Compiled programming language and the compiler is super annoying It's like your grandma like she loves you, but it's like super annoying like for every little thing think It says no, this is wrong.

This should not be like that You left one more space here as I don't like it. So So super annoying, but in the end you love it because it saves the titke also. I like this analogy with the grammar, but it works. That's too funny. And I love that. I mean, again, I've seen a lot more from just my end of what companies want. Yeah, Python got hot. I'd say three, four years ago, maybe a little before COVID. But really I think COVID is when I think it kind of more or less became invoked. I'm definitely seeing a lot of go and I'm seeing rust, right?

Now let me ask you as franchise, this, this just for my knowledge, for the most part, you don't build entire applications on the back end in rust, right? It is a part of a larger back end system. Or can you write the whole thing in rust? Does that make sense? I actually think I took and write the whole thing in the last event, even the front end. That makes it's a bit mind-blowing. But I'm still getting to that part. But using WASM, you can even write WASM on front end. But I'm starting from the back end. You know what Taylor, one of the things that I started learning REST, let's say a couple of years ago, but the reason why I started making tutorials and content out of it, it was because you can actually create a web server.

and like rest API in Rust, even without a framework. This is like fascinating to me. So to learn the syntax, you can use something that maybe you already used if you are a web developer, for example. And of course, it's like officially, it's a system programming language officially. But you know, making a tutorial on how to write Linux kernel, you're probably not the most researched thing on YouTube. Instead of like creating REST API. So, also from a selfish content creator point of view, these takes a wider audience, especially like my audience that they come from Docker. You can dockerize our last application. So, my answer is, I think yes, I think you can write a whole backend rust or some parts.

It also integrates well with other existing languages. And this is also how it's intended to work. Like you created these executables, but they can even take a care of just a small part because you want this to be more efficient. So my short answer is yes, but you don't have to. I love it. I love it. All right. Last thing I want to go for. I hit you with some rapid fire. We'll wrap up here. And again, for those of you tuning, thank you so much. This was great. Comment section has been obviously off the charts. Row hit. Yes, this is recorded both on my YouTube Francesco's YouTube and my LinkedIn.

so you can check the earlier streams of it. Francesco, talk about daily.dev, what is it, give yourself a plug, because again, I think it's a great platform. Thank you so much for giving me this opportunity, Taylor. So I'll give you my personal experience with the Lidev. So just to give an idea, in September 2020, I made my first unboxing video for a box of Zuagu by the Lidev. So it was even before joining, just to give you the idea and approach they had, then I interviewed the CEO of the Lead of in January 2021 and in October I joined. So the dev is really, I saw this like growing since we were like five or six in the company.

Now we are like 30, we raised last year like $11 million. So we have also the capacity now. I don't know if you can call ourselves still like a startup or not. We are in the face where we are really growing, getting like hundreds of thousands of new users. I think we are getting closer to half a million total users. So we are growing, let's say, and trying to do as much as possible. What is the lead ever? The lead ever is a platform for developers, in one line. So it's also a free platform for developers. So it's, initially, you can just go on the lead.dev and just get started.

We don't have paid plans. this makes my life as a developer, I do it very easy. So you can just check it out. We have Chrome extensions. We want to product hunt launches. You can just try it out. Initially, and this is funny, it was a side project idea of one of the three founders. Let's say, let's say the first version has been developed in a weekend, let's say it was basically just a feed of existing sources. So it's also inspiring from this point of view. I like the story, but I'll make a quick version. And now basically we have, it's used to stay up to date.

So it basically connects with any possible topics. Yes, of course, AI, Rasta, Docker, whatever. This also makes my life a bit of a lot because it's super easy. We don't have like a real like a competitor or like things that we compete with because we have this open platform for developers, all the front end open source. We have the GitHub repository, so you can check it out. We have the docs and stuff. We have sub community system. We, and to be honest, Taylor, for me, it's hard as a developer advocate to stay up to date with the engineering team. Like I went to Japan 15 days, I came, they made like two, three new versions.

Like we released just to give an idea. Last week, we released a new mobile app. Like, and you know, as a developer, how much does it take? like to just develop like a whole medium like Android and drive up but like in weeks, we're talking about weeks and not like he is of course. The engineering team is mind blowing. We have the marketing team, we try to keep pace but I highly recommend to just check it out and see if this can be useful for you. It also can drive more traffic to your articles recently And this has made me like super happy. We integrated the YouTube videos on the platform, making a deal with YouTube API.

Officially, we have YouTube embedded on the platform now. So we can actually share, I'll do this also with your, with this episode, because we're talking about tech. We basically can drive more traffic for free or on your blog and your YouTube channel. Yeah. This is... Sometimes I say these things and some people don't trust me. It can be possible that there is a platform that drives me traffic for free. Where is the trick? What's they do? We rely on founding and we have some small ads on the website, but that's the model that we have. We don't sell any data, any things is just these.

So I highly recommend to check it out. So we also always make like give away zwegs. Like one day we do a zweg and one way we don't. So if you're lucky, you'll probably will get a giveaway if we check us on Twitter and other social media. So Taylor, that's it. This was my job, but I would say the same thing. So even if I would not to work there, I'm a huge fan. This is probably the reasons why I joined. Exactly. Right. Yeah. Exactly. All right. Last four questions, we'll wrap it up here. and for those of you tuning in. Thank you so much.

First question for you, Trenton, French, let's go. If you could take a job outside of tech and money was not an issue, what would it be? Probably something now that has to do still with content creation, probably not in tech. So, travel, vlogging, something with health. So something that probably has to do with content creation anyway, but not on tech. So this is what I would do, probably a cooking channel, so something like that. So that's probably what I would do. And this is why I say that content creation is great anyway. I don't know, probably I've been still been tech here for 50 years, but if I would like to change or do something new, at least then I'll have the knowledge.

So I don't know exactly, but this is probably the direction where I would go. What, so right now, what do you like to do outside content creation and tech for fun? Yes, so for fun, I enjoy gardening. I've been doing this, but usually I don't share many things of like my garden, this equippity private. And of course, like running exercising as much as I say again, probably, you know, if money would not be a problem, I would be similar to market Zuckerberg rather than Elon Musk. Probably I would do to do so and other stuff. So this is probably I would more, no more. Like if money, you know, it was not more a problem and I could donate a lot.

Probably I would go back and I would exercise a bit more. Like, like people consider me like exercising, but can't fall sports, I always feel that, you know, I'm a bit below the average, but for my standards. So it's, this is probably something that I will do a bit more, but you know, time is time. I I still try to do this kind of regularly, but not as much. I was doing martial arts, kickboxing and something like that, but it was also some years ago. So probably, I don't know even if I should even try, but you know, my passion is giving me hope. So if you can do this at 58, it's giving me hope.

So that's the thing. I know that I'm not, there will never be a better level, but it's inspiring. It's you, someone made it. I love it. What any like cool frameworks, tools, technologies that you're tinkering with right now that you like, it could even be a new feature within Rust. There are too many to be honest. Taylor, I can barely keep track. Even to be honest, even with Docker, they've been releasing, for example, a new way to test the containers. But honestly, I didn't have time to check it because I've been a bit away in like in few weeks. So it's that's I don't I don't know if I can find probably I will find you know something like in 30 seconds.

Well, we'll stop it. But I highly recommend that say to to try to stay up to date at least I don't know with your favorite framework on a reactant 19 or next JS last version. So these are like cool cool things. Also, I heard the cool stuff about Quick, a new framework, I also miss code creator of the old AngularJS. So this is like a few things. And of course, Rust, why not? Like it's also, I think one of the newest programming languages, and it's developing like new like core features now. So it's like you can check it out, of course, and keep a track with that without feeling overwhelmed, this is how tech is.

You should get used otherwise I don't know, go and learn math. If you want something that is more static, I don't even know if math is static, but this is a feeling that you need to get used to. To just stay up to date, day by day. I mean, you can take one month off, but probably some of the frameworks, then you will need to watch some videos and learn more. So don't a specific thing. but I mentioned some of them. So, oh yeah. It's not gonna rust and react, probably. I love it, I love it. All right, last question, we'll wrap it up here.

There's shows called Guidance Council 2.0 because we had Guidance Council as a middle school high school and college, but now as adults, we don't really have one. What would be your biggest piece of career advice to young Francesco? Yes, so I don't know, my piece of advice, it's harder to give an advice to your old self-evident, or young self-evident, because you don't know how it will be your life, but let's play this game. One of the things is that probably care less about what people think about you, for example, I joined Social Media in 2020, but I could have had, I don't know, I don't want to say that I wanted to be an influencer, but at least having something, like having being just a bit more active on Social Media, since like when I was 18, when just Facebook was a thing.

Probably this would have been, I would have had absolutely different numbers. Also, I wanted to start my YouTube channel in 2011, making like English videos, but I felt that I know I was not ready, I should have made, I don't know, English courses before starting on YouTube channel, long story short, I ended up publishing my first video in 2020. Now, in 2024, I have almost 200,000 subscribers. If I would have started in 2011 making videos, probably you were talking with someone who had at least one million subscribers now. So that's one of the things. I regret nothing in life, but maybe dedicating some extra time and getting less about judgment of people.

the earlier you get out of your comfort zone, the more time you will have to make mistakes of course and to improve. So that's the only thing. The rest, I'm happy with my life, absolutely. But this is probably one thing because otherwise, developers are not just coders anymore. In the 60s, in the 70s, they were just pure coders, like these, they were hand-shipped back. Now we have bodybuilders who are developers. Even I am not like a pure, let's say, stereotype, stereotype of developer I run and do stuff. So it's good that it's like this. So developers, now they do other stuff. So that's my advice.

So it should be more or less shy and put things out in the world. Put on Publish on GitHub. Nobody cares. At least you have there. Yeah, I love it. I love it. Well, y'all, thank you again for hanging out with us today. Francesco, stay on so I can say bye to you backstage. But again, thank y'all for hanging out tomorrow morning, 9.30 a.m. central. We have my friend, Amri coming on. And then Wednesday is the great Aaron Francis. Y'all have a great one. Francesco, thank you, my friend. And we'll see y'all tomorrow. Peace. Bye-bye, Tom. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode.

And I am very grateful because you know why? There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes. And I myself rarely finish an entire episode. So I appreciate you so, so much for listening. Quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the App Store. I want this to be discoverable to others. And the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it. Please, like right now, unless you're driving, then don't do it. So thank you again. If you need to reach out to me at T.S. on all social media handles, and I hope you have a fantastic day.