the importance of the follow up w/ liz schwerd, sr. recruiter

full transcript

auto-generated from the audio, so expect a few typos. the audio is the source of truth.

all righty go morning everybody when I say everybody I mean nobody no one's here yet it takes a few minutes to hit the interwebs if you are tuning in by chance please say hey so I know um otherwise I'm G to wait until it I get all the notifications that it's hit everything so um excited for this because o just got the notification we're live on YouTube excited for this so Liz I know Liz for like 10 minutes now so it's going to be a great conversation um hold on before I dive in too much more I want to check LinkedIn make sure it's yet

all right hold on say hey I see the ticker people are tuning in okay primarily on X right now all right say hey would love to hear from you just waiting on all LinkedIn oh all LinkedIn all right sweet I got the notification that we just went that we're just now yeah Liz I've done this whole like Spiel and like basically got the notification that LinkedIn like crashed and it's awful so have to like restart the whole thing so I always wait around all right good morning everybody happy Tuesday hopefully yall doing well excited for this episode you're like Taylor you always say you're excited

yes that's what I I pick my guest so I'm always very very excited I don't have some booking agent Do It um I use this as a form of relationship building and so whenever I bring somebody on I'm very excited to have them on so I'm very excited to have Liz on like I said a few moments ago I've known Liz now for about 12 minutes um and Liz uh Liz Liz seems amazing so I'm really excited about this conversation you know while while this is an engineering focused podcast focused on the job search career side of things soft skills as they say I think

it's uh I think it's really fun to bring in recruiters every once in a while right because if I had it up to me I'd just have a recruiting podcast there's a lot of recruiting podcasts out there and so uh I always like bringing in recruiters to give practical tactical information um but please say hey we love to h ear from you um again the reason why I tell people this is this is a networking platform right uh don't mean this any offense to Liz or any of the guests but my guest on this podcast is secondary right and Liz and I are are going

to talk about uh networking for introverts here uh really that should have been the title let's be honest but um but Liz knows the importance of of networking and this podcast is specifically focused on the networking side of things so please say hey would' love to hear from you we're not in the metaverse yet we don't have our Apple Vision Pro goggles on yet so I don't know if you're watching unless you comment and say hey um I do have to say LinkedIn DMS were down on me just now and I'm not seeing any comments on LinkedIn at the moment but I see people watching

so I'm wondering if LinkedIn is having issues but please say hey hopefully the comments will come through here in a minute um second thing is I want to give some some announcements here right some announcements first off shout out to gunio if you need hiring help we love to help you in your journey uh when hiring Engineers um want to give a shout out to Endor AI another partner of mine I'm doing some Consulting with them and um I actually you know Liz you probably curious in this so typically when you apply to a job it's typically just timestamped right so like it depends on

it depends on where you're at in the interview process or depends on where you smid your resume and where the recruiter sorts so if the recruiter sorts first in you're going to get seen the recruiter shorts last in you're going to get first seen and you but you may be in the middle of the pile and you're never going to get seen right so what endorsed AI does is actually leverages AI with a bunch of parameters you plug into it what's important and it bubbles the resumes actually up to the top to the surface so the actual best people are getting seen during the submission

process so check out endorse AI pretty coo l tool um what I'm I'm I'm trying to get to southp to speak by the way um and so please I would love love your vote you got to go create a profile and do the whole thing but it would mean lot to do that um also want to give a shout out I started the dad's group Tech dads and Tech so check it out um go subscribe we have our first meet up in three weeks we have about 60 Tech dads rsvped already I don't know what I'm doing but it's going to be a blast we're

going to build this as we go um I also am launching a private Discord with my dear friend Kelly vau who's a director of engineering basically what we're doing is we're doing a kind of closed community to help people in the job search right there I kind of our VIs vision is like this is going to be like Twitter meets like resume writing LinkedIn writing meets General networking job you know crowdsourcing jobs it's going to be kind of this ecosystem so please check that out also if you want updates when we go live um Tech 6152 35565 text okay all right enough of me running

outou so uh I don't see people tuning in I know there's people tuning in so there's got to be something wrong with LinkedIn so Liz there is people watching I promise so uh Liz let's give a little bit of rundown about yourself who are you what are you do and then we'll dive into the importance of followup perfect um so I'm Liz schwar and I'm the founder of a recruiting consulting firm uh a firm of one we scale up when we need to but Haven hiring Solutions and my career started in candidate coaching so helping people learn the interview skills resume writing skills um application

skills to find work um I personally think it gave me a really unique Advantage when I went into recruiting having just that high degree of empathy for candidate experience um and I continue to do candidate coaching selfishly it honestly made me feel a lot better when I was starting my company and you know you had those endless days of nobody calling you back sure um I open up my calendar minimum once a week but up to five times a week and I offer free 30 minute coaching sessions with candidates so I'm always keeping my finger on that pulse I'll never charge money for it personal

choice um and yeah I posted something that I think resonated with you you and 18 minutes ago we officially met and here we are there you go I love it real quick this is not my house this was just a background image so I'm not fancy and cats will appear in the video I'm just GNA warn you we love cats we love cats all right I do have to say I went to LinkedIn main there is an issue with streamyard this morning so I'm gonna give a shout out to people tuning in on my LinkedIn JC it's good to see you ta it's good to

see you Ricardo Jordan Chris Eric arunas Trey Ryan it's wonderful to see y'all this morning so there is a connection issue with stream but we do have people watching Nick if you tune in on I guess YouTube go hang out on my YouTube and throw in some comments for yall watching go tune in on YouTube I guess that's how we're going to get comments if you have questions I'll try to moderate this as best we can but if you really have a pressing question head on over to my YouTube real quick and ask questions obviously it's working on YouTube all right so Liz a lot

to cover today because I have a lot of questions so let's talk about followup right I mean one of the main reason why I have my job currently at gunio is because I knew how to play the game and I knew followup was incredibly important the CEO said hey we like you we want to hire you but we want to hire our VP marketing first the cats made the appearance I love it um so I knew that like hey I gotta stay on the CEO a week later I I followed up and then I got the offer because that head of the the VP marketing

turned down the offer if I never did that I may not have gotten the offer so yeah so so let's talk about followup how should people follow up I know that's kind of a general question but's let's jus t start picking this apart real quick and again love the cat don't worry about it the more animals the better she's our crazy redhead I love it I love it so I typically so the one thing I'm going to say there's no such thing as blanket advice in job search like there's always going to be the one time that this is not the right approach so feel

free to beat me up if this is not the right approach for you but for many especially in this market I'm advising doing a lower volume of applic application so that you can have a higher t in your followups okay um really really quick example so about four months ago six months ago I was hiring a TA manager and it was remote we all know the state of ta it's in the absolute toilet I would say the only thing that's got hit worse than software Engineers is recruiters yep um so I post a job it is remote so lots of people are going to want

it I get about a th applicants I think it was 913 within a week um and you know sitting on that side of the fence that's going to take me some time to get through yeah so the reason I'm bringing it up these are TA managers they know good recruiting hygiene they know good application hygiene do you know how many actual direct contacts I got through Linkedin from a thousand applicants six people contacted me wow mind you I have personal friends who were sitting in that bucket waiting to be reviewed and they didn't think to message me so I think that it's really really undervalued

um you know how meaningful it can be to just shoot a follow-up note to a recruiter saying hey I just applied to blank um would love for you to take a minute to review my resume would be happy to jump on a call and discuss um not enough workflow submit the resume then follow up with that person in the DMS yep okay and I would note too especially if you're going into a large organization include the rec ID job idid whatever that six-digit number usually is include it because if you're hitting the wrong recruiter um it's zero effort for them to plug that number into

the ATS identify the job in the recruiter and forward the message what is what is a wreck number talk about that I don't talk about that that much so if people are like what is a wck number so when you're applying to a job it's usually somewhere so every ATS is going to be a little bit different um but you'll see something and it'll be like a 386 712 like it'll be a short Ed number maybe with a letter in front Okay that's the rec ID number it's somewhere um but I can't point you exactly where except usually in the URL you'll find it somewhere

embedded in there um but it is usually findable okay when it comes to when it but but not every job has a wck number correct I just I've never I've never met an ATS that doesn't display it but that doesn't mean there that doesn't mean it doesn't exist sure sure 100% 100% um Ryan comes in here goes I've assumed people are heading over to YouTube uh today um I've assumed that getting into DMS after applying would be somewhat annoying to the recruiter yes I get this question a lot please expound on this if you're expecting a response yeah I mean like don't expect a response

um but you know like I worked for an organization that had 70 recruiters and somebody would tell me I just applied to this role that's not in my market not in my vertical not my line of business if they include the job ID number or at least have a unique name it takes me two seconds to find the right person to send this message to and most recruiters are on your side we're not mutants like we're not trying to gatee keep you out of it I'm forwarding that message because you're displaying a higher than average level of interest in the role and that's valuable to

me yes yeah absolutely absolutely I love this again yeah head on over to YouTube questions are coming in now um what's the timel for follow up with the DM with around 24 to 72 hours I get this question all the time I'm sure you do too so ah hold on cat just adjuste d something okay we're back um I was saying wait a week I amended that recently and I'm saying like there's no reason not to jump over and just say hey I just submitted my resume like right now just in my resume here you go and the reason really is uh some markets uh

engineering ta the flood opens so early is best um and you just want to get seen um I want to put a little asterisk here the goal here isn't necessarily to turn a no into a yes like that's not going to happen what we're trying to do is we're taking the people who are living in purgatory the reviewed bucket and we're trying to turn ourselves into a no or a yes and just get out of purgatory right yep absolutely absolutely talk about um uh are there any other mistakes you see with people follow up or I don't know just any more thoughts on the on

the things I don't know mistakes I have some people who maybe come in and are too demanding like when I'm hiring yeah about very senior salese or people who are like VP Ops they can come in and they can you know I don't know if they got the advice from like a Robert calini or something like but you know just coming in like demand you know and I'm not saying you have I can't believe I'm about to say this because I don't even understand the trend I'm not saying you have to be demure in your Outreach there you go I honestly don't even understand the

trend it's just the right word for it but um like just be appropriate you know what I mean like don't come in and you know like put your calendly link in there and say here schedule time for a call like that's too much you're saying thank you for reviewing my resume you're maybe in inserting what I would consider a deao cover letter which is my resume includes this but I'd like to highlight ABC that I feel directly ties to your role like that's the kind of stuff and don't expect a response yeah you know you're probably not going to get one the response is going

to come through the atss yeah talk about so so I I want to set a little bit more context with the with the audience who's watching right now so yeah Liz is coming from the sense of like a little bit larger recruiting and I would say most companies have ats's right the applicant tracking system right the dreaded resume rejector which let's cover that here in a second right so like like the so most companies have the the the ATS the the so I just I just want to preface that we're talking about where you know again this is the resume kind of database we're talking

about here right not all companies have ats's but most you will come in contact with uh will um Trey comes in here I said this on my show two days ago I have not made the recruiter list yet for X but it is on my to-do list Trey for sure um and then Chris said it best goal is to get your name in front of somebody yeah it's it's that word it's that kind of like word name Association um is a big thing Liz I I want to talk about something too when it comes to tone uh followup like what are just some word tracks

to use on maybe the first second or third because I feel like people get weird on like I tell people openly you may not get a response from me at this point unless you follow for me three or four times but I think people don't know what to say after the first time so can you give maybe some practical things to say on the second third or fourth time to potentially get a response I don't know that I'm following up more than once so if I'm talking this is a cold application I submitted my resume I sent a note to the recruiter I'm giving it

a week or two and then I'm going to the hiring manager that's my next move not like a second poke at the recruiter and this yeah this is the piece of advice that recruiters hate but I feel it's appropriate um you give the recruiter you know a grace period you know like I applied I sent a notice you know saying hey I did apply just in case I'm lost in the sea and then that's where I do jump to hiring manager personally so so so your so your thing is is if you're working with an internal recruiter hit the recruiter up just once or twice

let me let me cover all my bases here cold application there's not been a conversation there's not phone screen yeah like once you've been contacted by the recruiter if you were to jump to hiring manager that is the absolute wrong move don't do it okay like that's gonna be that's gonna be the blanket advice that I commit to today okay I'm talking cold application you're sitting in limbo which is you know Purgatory the review bu I'm just trying trying to get a get an answer and so what I would do is maybe send one gentle followup like hey I'm sure you were inundated on you

know the day that your Ro went live checking in again to see if uh you know you had any interest in talking more so maybe that would be my second follow-up step okay give it a week again because we want that grace period but at that point I'd find the likely hiring manager and ping them directly how can someone find a likely hire manager do you think so if you were applying to let's say I don't know uh internal coms or I don't know I don't know if that's even meaningful for your audience but you know internal comms for a large company like I would

say if they don't have a director of comms then I would say it's probably like a director of Employee Engagement like just like think it through like go on LinkedIn look at the company page find people who are you know in that space or with that title but again like I'm not really for Perfection cuz the note is going to say hey I applied to X Ro on y date um it looks like this role might be on your team if so I'd love to connect and talk a little bit more about the specific value I could bring like it's all very short and sweet

and it's all very I don't want to say casual because it's important but it's also it's not like overly directive yeah um and again we're just operate on the assumption that people aren't mutants yeah like the hiring manager isn't going to be like oh my gosh this person is completely out of line yeah like they're not um you know and they might just say oh no that's actually Tim's team let me shoot it over there and they'll probably kick it back to the recruiter but now the recruiter has someone saying hey this profile looks interesting and they reached out to me you know like you

might taking a look and maybe giving them a call yeah absolutely absolutely let me check the LinkedIn comments anybody else has commented here I don't see anything okay cool um I want to talk kind of moving on if there's any more questions about follow-up I don't want to kill the follow-up thing um but but so Liz I'm curious so I'm going to give you my my tips real quick I'm curious again tell me if tell me think if I'm right or wrong I so as a recruiter for the tral recruiter for like 10 11 years in full honesty sometimes I hated giving feedback I'm just

gonna say it like I hated I hated I hated rejecting people right and sometimes I just sat on feedback because I didn't want to reject you right I'm let's I'm just being honest here right I feel like if you give the recruiter or hiring manager I guess the door to reject you or the door to give you feedback they're more likely to give you feedback so my word track I always say is hey Mr Mrs recruiter I haven't heard from you in a week or two I'm probably rejected just let me know one way or the other because I'm just trying to move on thoughts

on that I don't hate it okay I think a week or two depending on the volume of applications I think you might still be viable and you might be shooting yourself a foot a little bit a little okay okay I love it no this is why this is yeah 100% is there is there a way you'd probably frame that or would you say maybe just stay away from that unless it's been like three or four weeks at that point yeah like if we're hitting a month in no response okay cool you know yeah I would I would definitely shove that for future use like I

just kind of like I call it my perky cheerleader you know like hey you know I'm sure you're super busy but you know like again like church it up or like make it your own voice but that's the the spirit of the Outreach 100% uh Kent it's good to see you brother this morning um uh Trey a little off topic but I'm wondering how different is the hiring process for companies companies in Tech is a profit Center cost center for example a PayPal versus a Capital One and would we follow up the same oh even uh I mean to be honest with you Trey I

think interview and followup is the same whether it's a you're you're you know applying to a bank or you're applying to a a SAS high growth startup I think follow-ups followup thoughts on that Liz yeah I mean the only roles that I think have very functional different kind of expectations in terms of like application process and Outreach is like sales or recruiting that's where I might expect a different kind of process but I think functionally speaking like Tech recruiting is going to be the same as marketing recruiting like I I don't know I don't see a difference but I also might not be understanding the

question yeah yeah Trey if you want to expound but I think I know what you're trying to say I think what you're trying to say is is there a different basically between like the the the software actually driving the business versus the software just being part of the business and I would say they're the same the interview process is the same across the board um all right so one thing that Liz I talking about backstage is recently gave a panel on networking from introverts told her that probably works really well for my audience a software engineers and nerds aren't like the most extroverted people Liz

what what were some takeaways of that panel anything you want to expound on so my my like Firm Stance on networking is I don't do it um which is weird because you know I know technically that's what I'm talking about but if an event is titled networking like no I'm not going the idea that people are showing up with the expectation of like rubbing shoulders or dropping names like it it makes me ill what I do instead is I go to learning events or industry events so you're in the recruiting World um this isn't going to mean much to the audience breakfast have you heard

of it were you there last year yeah they're in it's in Nashville it's in Nashville so like I go and I'm that jerk who's sitting in my chair like can you guys keep it down I'm paying attention but then after the event like we have something in common to talk about like oh my God I love the way they were using the Boolean to do this and like suddenly you're having a conversation with people in your industry and you have a common ground like I'll never be able to do small talk I'll never be able to walk up to someone and be like hey this

is some weather it's just not made small talk with a guy in my bista today and I was like man the weather's great and I drove away I was like damn like I'm that dude right now like I hate myself so what I do is I go to Industry events that have a purpose and then the network is incidental do you have any do you have any other tips for introverts at all I I love that though I I love that kind of going to Industry that's why like that's why this live show like like that's why like like you have a we have a

person you can ask questions but then you can also uh you know Network as well right it's kind of multi multi-folded and this is exactly like so when I say I don't network but I'm doing these you know I mean I people and correct you know but another example I volunteer with a atap uh American talent acquisition professionals I'll promote the heck out of content but I refuse to promote their dedicated networking slots yeah because it's just not me I'm not GNA show up to it so I'm not gonna encourage others to do you do you have any hacks not hacks I mean I I

just feel like that's like a cheap way to say it do yo u have any though like if somebody like goes to a conference and they struggle with small talk have you done have you figured out anything that kind of works for you in larger crowds at all be prepared to somebody's gonna ask did you do something fun this weekend or you know like do you have any fun plans this weekend be prepared with an answer like you can't avoid small talk at all yeah you I mean you can't yeah right yeah yeah so just think on that before you go because it's going to

happen um and then like also remember nine at a time nine out of 10 if somebody is asking you a question it's because they want you to ask them the same question because they have something they want to share love that love that yeah yeah love that yeah and also too like when you respond when networking give the I'm trying to figure out how to rephrase this give a response that elicits potentially more conversation right because a lot of times people are like you know how are you doing I'm good and it's like oh now what do I say but instead be like I'm great

I'm super pumped about this weather I had a great cup of coffee this morning I'm just absolutely buzzing with caffeine right then that person has the opportunity to talk about coffee maybe they they do coffee or they don't do coffee maybe they do matcha talk about the weather man I'm so excited about the weather and pumpkin spice latte is coming right that'll that'll have a right you know you know I know demure right now is going around the the the the the social media Tik Tok world I'm very demure that'll have a conversation if the person goes what are you talking about then like maybe

that's awkward but like you know what I'm saying like try to give a response that elicits a response from other person but Liz I I love what you said usually typically if somebody ask you a question the answer it and just ask them back yeah pretty simple pretty simple um do do you have any other uh networking tips right because again you're not nec essarily in the tech I love talking to people not always in Tech because they have kind of different uh you know tricks maybe um do you do you have any other uh when you go to a conference like recfest on how

to network with people do you have do you do anything else to get people NW um last year I got a lanyard be because I'm a weirdo and I couldn't find a necklace that was long enough to complement my dress so I decided to get a lanyard I love it and I put a QR code to my LinkedIn profile so that when I met somebody I could just like oh hey let's connect um I'm trying to think though honestly like I survive them and I do well in them versus where I was a year ago but I'm still in survival mode in terms of networking

um like I'm not like flourishing in it so I love it well and that's the truth I feel like everyone's like oh recruiters they can talk D no like we honestly some of the best recruits I know are huge introverts yep huge introverts I don't know why I need to do like a study on that um but uh yeah a few comments have coming yeah the food line I think listen food I think I think southern baptist got it right I think the closest way to people's hardest through their stomach you know I think break bread with folks I think it's a great way to

have conversation um good yeah I framed it better yeah yeah no I mean I think the interview process is the same tray across the board the hallway track is where to meet people 100% again just have some good questions one of the questions I ask on the podcast and and and Liz I'm gonna ask you here soon is what do you like to do outside of work right everybody asks what do you do I like to say what do you do outside of work right because that usually elicits a better conversation um um yeah I've decided to take a break from conference want to focus

on your smaller events just good thing Liz you have any thoughts on this so I have thoughts I want to hear your thoughts first because you're the guest I'm the host um so for me conferences I'm gonna be too lengthy in my response so cut me off at the knees if it gets out of hand I have I tend to hate conferences because they focus on getting like Premier people like um I I have no idea why Ted lasso would be speaking at as SHRM a couple you know whatever that was yeah I always yeah I never get those like big speakers that have no

industry experience speaking Yeah so I think if I'm reading this right like I do prefer smaller focused groups that have practitioners as the speakers versus like sea level because what am I really getting from that sea- level person y I'm not walking away with a new skill yeah no I love that I love that I think too listen I called this I've been calling it I think we're going back to the early 2000s late 90s when it comes to networking hear me out I think you're going to start seeing and to be totally Frank with you this is why Kelly Von and I started our

private job search Community because they it's a freemum model okay because back in the day you used to sign up and pay $300 a month for these luncheons where you can go network with people and everybody in the room had the exact same profile the exact same like experience I think we're heading back there what I'm seeing is an emphasis in smaller conferences I've talked with a lot of conference goers in the tech space that are trying to go smaller single track conferences not multi-track conferences more I literally was talking to a conference organizer yesterday more emphasis on networking a lot more intimate I think

the big ones are always going to exist right I'm not saying like we're never going to go away from those but like I'm I'm seeing like people are craving more intimate I'm not saying necessarily the paid side but I'm saying the more intimate meetups that are more applicable to their skill sets I would agree but I've also never been attracted to those super large ones either sure I kind of play in that space in the engineering there's a lot of big eng ineering conferences hundreds and thousands of people so yeah I don't think it would be meaningful to the audience but like I'm not parting

ways with $1,500 to go to sourcecon when I can go to recfest for $199 or hung Ley weekly meetings for free you know what I mean like correct exactly exactly I I think I agree with you but I also don't know I ever really swam in the other waters yeah no that makes sense that makes sense uh let see Trey as an introvert I feel like we do better with building depth with people especially when it comes to topics really into also love yeah exactly love that yeah I think that's great I think that's great also think too introverts are uh um I think we're

very calculated in how we spend our energy and so it's got to be more meaningful um which usually makes people better recruiters right building relationships so all right Liz that this was awesome um uh I want to ask you a few kind of random questions rapid fire at the end I do with every single guest all right first question it's actually a newer question if uh what did you want to be in grade school for your job and do you think you would be good at it now this is embarrassing I wanted to be an actress it's not embarrassing um oh it's really embarrassing um

I would not be good at it now um today I'm lucky it's my hands that are sweaty speaking in public and not my face but either way I'm uncomfortable in front of people that's fantastic that's fantastic um mine was an attorney and a veterinarian and I was awful at science and I'm awful at arguing so terrible uh it would not have worked both um next question uh if so if I told you you couldn't do anything in the recruiting space tomorrow but I'll pay you what you're getting paid or more money's not the problem what would you do outside of recruiting for your job um

like any passion hobbies that you would take on full-time I would probably I would probably attend a bookstore I don't want a cashier I don't want to like manage the IM like I want to just walk around and point people in the direction of something they'd enjoy reading hey go I love it I love it yeah um next question any anything you've read watched it's kind of like a so I usually interview nerds on the show so I ask them like what's their favorite framework they've messed with right so but so so for my non- nerd guests I usually ask just any book recommendations uh

Netflix record just any fun content that that you've watched or read recently oh my gosh that's tailor made for me I don't know if you follow me I speak into the void on Fridays I do fiction Friday I love it I'm sick of all these dude Bros like posting their business books that they just read um so every Friday I post a book that I read and you know my take on it um the last one that really wowed me was the last days of Jack Sparks okay that was the last one where I was like how has this been out for eight years or

whatever it is and it's just coming into my existence I befriended the author I'm like I need you to write another one like that's awesome yeah that's the last one I've truly nerded out on I love that I love that all right last question wrap up here again thank y'all for thank thank you all for hopping over from LinkedIn to YouTube I knew this was going to be a weird show because I was trying to message I was trying to DM Liz the link to sign on on LinkedIn and it it like it like went out on me I was like uh oh so again

thank you'all for tuning in on on YouTube and asking some questions um Liz the show's called guidance counselor 2.0 in Chris had guidance counsel in middle school high school and college but now as adults we don't really necessarily have a guidance counselor turn two and ask for advice so what would be your biggest piece of advice if you go back in time to talk to Young Liz what would be your biggest piece of career advice y oh God share ideas I was very I was painfully shy when I first came out of college okay painfully and I just was UN comforta ble speaking up huh

um okay and the second you start speaking up you start to find other people have similar ideas you know what I mean um so you just have to like go through that discomfort yeah and I wish I had done it sooner I don't think I really hit my stride with that until I was like 27 okay I love that I love that speak up I love that cool well y'all thank you again for hanging out with us go connect with Liz she puts out some great stuff um again everybody I bring on the show I eat my own dog food if if I see somebody

post something I really like I I messaged them for example tomorrow Ryan Burgess a former engineering leader at Netflix he posted something that went crazy viral on Twitter about why is everybody in Tech burnout so we're going to talk about that tomorrow it's gonna be a great conversation but Liz thank you my friend for coming on uh I appreciate you knowing you now for about 45 minutes is awesome um so go connect with Liz she's a Jim y'all have a great one we'll see youall tomorrow so tomorrow special time 11:00 am Central with Ryan Burgess talking about why everybody in Tech is burnout y'all have

a good one we'll see