episode 42 w/john fly, director of se at smiledirectclub

full transcript

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What's going on everybody we are live this morning on a Monday on a sunny Monday Unlike Saturday, do you get all those storms John? Yeah, yeah, that was brutal. That was just absolutely all right Any flooding on your end? No, I'm about 40 miles south of Nashville So we we didn't get as bad good But for those of you tuning in have a guess this morning at me call me let John know where you're tuning in from I know he'd love to hear from you. So I've admired John from afar I'm kind of what he's doing the software space and he posted a Post recently a link in I saw I loved it.

I said John. I want to have you on talk about so we're gonna dive in Here the next few seconds about culture Specifically within tech and even more specifically from a startup side of things Because John obviously you've had some experience in the startup life as well And also some enterprise stuff too, so But again Look at that Andrew I admire that beard. Yeah, mine minor John's no, I'm just good. Oh Yeah, John actually I really just wanted John on the show Just show off his beard because really honestly John Your your LinkedIn picture pretty epic like you look very majestic The only photo I like of myself ever and it was a candid candid shot It looks you just you just you just majestic you're just majestic Well, let's go ahead and dive in because because I cuz John's a busy man So everyone thank you again for guidance count.

Thank you for tuning the guidance council 2.0 this Monday morning So I again like I said about a minute or so ago John posted a post on LinkedIn And I liked it and then I slid into John's DMs so again, I don't just talk about Do it I actually do it And so John agreed to come on The live show with me and so John I want to go ahead and first stop introduce yourself Tell the individuals who you are what you do and then I'm gonna read your post and then we'll dive into that sure My name's John fly I've been in technology for over 20 years from You know hands-on keyboard Application developer currently Director software engineering for smile direct club So that's a pretty big national location.

Yep, and The whole time I've been you know In technology I try and Learn myself, but I love Lining on other people so I tried you know, I try and have good connections and have kind of a network And in the last couple of years that started to turn where people are coming to me And setting things up and asking for My help my opinions, you know, I'm now the old guy so That's awesome like like you said early enough. I've had some experience in startups Like really early day startups some funded and growth today startups and also large enterprises. So yeah, you know I think I've seen things that work and don't work at each stage And had a couple conversations recently about Startup startup world.

I love it. I love it a few people trickling in Cathy a good morning. What's going on? It's good to see you Truth and advertising what are ready Andrew? You're the best Thomas good morning Nicky what's going on? Nicky's my goalie and ice hockey And he is too this was good to see a buddy So John I'm gonna read your post And then we can chat about it and then we can go about our way. I see this morning So John said I've been speaking to some startup through some of the topic of when to bring in someone to help define and build a strong culture And tackle hiring retention training etc.

It's rarely too early 100% of group you by the time you realize you need it You're probably in a bad place already extremely true Not defining what you want your culture to be early and not building it into your hiring practice early can lead to caseload Literally, I'm getting goosebumps right now reading this again The company can define the goal But it's the people that make up the organization that actually define what your culture is Spending the time hiring the right people up front is a true investment for future success Yeah, I mean man What what in your life are you dealing with? Were you just posted this because I tell you what there has not been a true post That I have seen on LinkedIn From leadership in tech than this And so I'm curious if you can share Maybe maybe what your motivation was behind this post first off because there I mean it's incredible well Like I said I've been in a Had experience in startups and in large companies and not No, I had to work for a train wreck, you know, I'm just saying that but It's it has been kind of obvious in the larger corporations have been in that it's some point along the way as they were growing they just brought in they just brought in people they had a big hiring rush and Established some boundaries, you know, they kind of grew up and established boundaries and I hate silos one I really really hate silos and companies.

I hate hand-over. What do you mean by silos? Sure? So Well, let's let's say that you and I had a business idea. I'll start sure. Let's do it I had a business idea and we're gonna be partners, right and You and I are gonna make sure we're on the same page about what the business is gonna do how we're gonna be profitable the sequences and You know most likely we're not gonna have millions of dollars right? You know the day one so we're gonna work on building this company and we're gonna be in it and working together every day I'm not gonna you know say I'll see every Monday Right?

We're at it again talking constantly Correct, so the startup the small group grows like that you have this small group of people who are in constant communication and You know most often if you're you know dealing with you know sweat equity and you know people having literal equity in the company right? Everybody is laser focused on the success of the organization. I want you to succeed you want me to succeed Because that means the company's gonna be successful right? So we're along the way typically We'll get too big for the constant communication and we'll start saying are you're gonna be in charge of X and I'll be in charge Why and then we start putting those weekly touch-based meetings right gotcha and?

When that starts to happen there's a tendency for you to optimize Division X and need to optimize division Y and we stop losing track of Optimizing for the company and each other and We'll start hiring in other people right and if we don't hire in if we're in it weren't a pension I bring somebody in real fast who maybe has great technical ability, you know of a rock star software developer a 10x engineer right the Exengineer And unless I'm really crisp and clear in the interview with him about this is the company you're coming into this is the company We are this is the company

we want to be and make sure he's on board with that culture That that idea that philosophy of who we want to be That's where things can start going wrong, but sure he's you know He's gonna be a higher number one he'll probably help higher number two right right You might be that he might interview he might take over interviews sure Now if he and I weren't on the same level right he's gonna start hiring different types of people and slowly You know as more people come in the door for You know our business the one we started it's like the telephone game right There's

the further off you get from communicate So let me ask you this then John so and they'll we'll go back to the post too, but So the people are watching this right I'd be watching this or you know all different types of Sinurities different stages of career.

Yeah How how would you say I mean what did you reckon? Because you and I if you and I started a business together you and I can't maintain that synergy forever Right like we can't we can't like continue to meet every single day. There's gotta be some silo this you know So how what would you say to To people watching right now of how do you maintain that culture? When you start playing the telephone game and it starts getting 20 people wide like like like how how do you Keep that center nucleus that you and I would have across the board. So that's That's why you know a lot of these conversations I'm having I've been having conversations that are more slanted on the technical side because sure but I Really do try and you know bring up Make sure the company has and it doesn't have to be a mission statement, but Have something have some have a have a statement You know a description of What type of company are you you know you know you're not just a company that produces a widget right right?

You typically have goals. You want to have a certain culture, right? Yeah, really figure out what that what that is and don't You know make it meaningful and make it mean something to you make it something people stand behind and then Really be selective in the energy process that the type of people you're talking to and bringing in are not just a fit for the The job role but a fit company because that's where I see things go off the rail so So much right though. It's yeah, you know Be selective be you know be very good in your hiring process for the technical skills and whatever role Right and you really have to make sure you're bringing in somebody that believes in your company and in what you Absolutely so so let's so let's talk about what so what prompted this post?

So To be honest, there's there's always conversation going on inside company So you know it's that's my right club We're having conversations on how to how to grow and be better even though we're a very large company and I always try and point you know to Lean principles theory constraints and then Like a simple for I'm not a big fan of silos and in barriers to success inside of companies and so that's that's been my voice inside of smile sure and With these conversations with these smaller companies I was having I was getting kind of frustrated because I was getting a lot of pushback on what we're we're not there yet You know, we're we're like 30 people.

We're like, you know, we've got a 20% development team and I'm thinking You could be so far You know in trouble. You just don't know it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean 20 people I mean that's that is a larger group of people and if you walk in Right, and I've been in companies around 20 people you walk in the door and you say, you know, what? Who are we right? Right you're probably gonna get 20 different answers And they might be close but you know if you haven't selected for that cultural fit yeah, if the If the executives or the people at the top of the company haven't defined that in a meaningful way and you're gonna have 20 really different answers and and the worst thing you can get is where The people at the beginning had an idea like a mission like a true mission like the health people right and then the new hires are all about You know profit.

Yeah, yep. That that can get really off balance real fast and then you know on the whole silos issue As you bring people in if they don't understand The value to the organization Right end it end value people need to bring then they're gonna start optimizing their behavior for their job role That the next developer he's gonna think you know I am judged solely on the quality of my code and the quality of my technical specifications and the complexity of my tech instead of saying you know 10x developer, you know your job is to bring your experience You know to the company and if you see somebody else suffering if you see somebody else that has you know 10 hours a week doing something that you can You know optimize or automate you know in a couple hours Help them, you know go help them make sure make sure you discuss, you know your ideas on product You know direction Don't but so good.

Yeah, that's good. So we had a few comments come in Kyle goes Kyle Hey, I have me watch your love stream lately, but it's only because your advice got me a job I wanted for salad. There you go. Hey listen changing lives on the show. That's what John's on here Brian good morning. What's going on? It's good to see you. Yes, Andrew I'm assuming Andrew's talking about being on the same page. Taylor gets hired for jazz gig He doesn't bring a 30 inch bass drum with double pedal road times You you haven't seen my type of jazz. I like Andrew Jeff. What's going on? Do morning?

Yeah, always find the company has a misstatement you identify with we have to get to big right and John I'm curious too, so so we've talked about right now Being on the same page making sure you have some what just can call it micha statement just for yeah for this Right so so then let's talk about hiring right let's so what are your philosophies because I have lots of thoughts right so over the last year I've seen companies Leverage so obviously I'm coming up from the recruiting perspective right. I know my thought isn't the end all be all But what I have seen that there are companies in Nashville leveraging us the right way Mm-hmm and Scaling up teams and then I can get on calls with a hiring manager and within 15 minutes Know that they're having internal issues because of the way they treat us on the call as a recruiting firm Right, so I'm curious what what are some things again?

Because I like to I'd like for this live show to be for both hiring managers But also job seekers right so what are some key things that you put in place for the interview process that job seekers right now Could be like oh, that's good. I didn't think about that Maybe I'll take note and go into my next interview So what are some things that your team at least has put in place? So right now we're actually trying to work towards more standardized interview processes to make sure that you know Any if we have two people that come on the door and we have two different interviewers, right?

Let's say they're scheduled at the same time. All right. Well for whatever reason We want to make sure that those two people are on a level playing field That if I interview person A and you interview person B They've essentially been vetted through the same process right love that it's and by having a Formal process and I'm not saying I'm not the biggest formal process guy, but by having a process done whatever process process one you can get that technical selection criteria kind of cover and then move into You know a conversation give some room for a conversation make sure you express again This is who we are right Looking this is these are the skills we're looking to bring in the door But this is the person who we're looking to bring in the door These are the opportunities for that type of person and this is why the company wants these types of people right it out You spend a lot of time with the people you work with right and right either the day You don't want to be upset or frustrated so you know you want to hire people Who you want to work with exactly so you know Don't hire the brilliant jerk.

Yeah, you know Well, let me let me jerk. Yeah, let me ask you this then So what are the biggest things that you're seeing in hire right now that can't should do better or can do better? I think hiring the companies and the hiring manager couldn't always do better with Not taking a canned job description to really give some thought into the who Even if it's bull hey listen at company standard job description get rid of that. Yes Go ahead. Sorry And even you know like I said even if you're having like you know entry level developer Or whatever Yeah, you can have kind of the skills but you know know why you're hiring that person.

No, I don't that position's open and then be able to speak to that in the interview I and it's it's a really Also put yourself in the you know in the other person's shoes. It's it's difficult to interview somebody a lot of people hate doing interviews Yeah, both of you are in the interview. Right. Right. Nope Make sure you've got the formulaic stuff like down cold Yeah, the girls and roles and responsibilities out of the way and make sure you give some time to just breathe and talk Make sure they're in the person I Love that so we had a few other comments come in um most Nick most small companies are delusional about their culture where executives think it's XYZ It's really ABC and they never figure it out John thoughts on this So maybe maybe this is when you're in trouble, right back to the you know if you and I start a company Hopefully us the founder is know what type of company we want to have right and You know Hopefully it's gotten this way because we've we haven't been mindful about where it's growing right I have seen companies that are just completely out of touch and Have statements around you know we're one of the we're the best place to work in town.

We're we're fun. We're innovative right we may have Games games in the break room But if you're the company that has you know foosball and air hockey or whatnot games in the in the break room But then your employees are scared to take a break Who you know then then you're lying to yourself about what type of culture you have if you're You know if you're an innovative company What have you innovated on in the last year or two right? Are you are you encouraging people to think outside the box? Or are you keeping them boxed in right and saying this is your role?

This is what you do don't don't you're don't talk to this person You know Because if your if your people aren't innovating your company's not innovative It will if your people are having fun your company's not a fun place to be of and You know if if you're if you're an exec and you have a Talk to people below the one layer down in a year You don't know what your company is yeah, if you know if you can't take an uncomfortable conversation if you're If you haven't heard bad news in a while chances are people are keeping it from you and They're probably doing

that because they're afraid and and maybe that's earned and maybe it's not so yeah, you know I found it you know recently from from Elon Musk and you know, he's not He's not the golden god of business, but he's he's a smart guy sure I found a communications email he sent out to Tesla early on about You know, we can't Is at least before 2017 he said you know We can't compete with the big car companies in size So we're gonna have to compete in agility and intelligence and the rest of the email is basically You talk to whoever you need to in the company

To make things happen.

I love that So that's so good. Yeah, that's really really good So Thomas going back to the interview question. I think standardized interview process is great. Yeah, I agree I mean again We're going on 21 minutes and we're just scratch the service. I gotta have John back on To talk about different things, but yeah, I mean, I think that's important I think when companies just go yes, you yes, you yes, you okay? Yes, that I think that's I think that could be dangerous Create a baseline for a tech specifics and have room to evaluate a personality based on yeah, I mean again Right know what you're hiring for check those things off then based on person.

I think it's incredibly important So John so let's close out on this question because again, I mean we're chopping it up And I'm sure we can go for the next hour if we wanted to Um What are some things that either you or smile direct have put in place for good culture and a remote environment last year? Or or some things that you haven't that you want to do that you think would incorporate good culture because I'm Fasting with this whole thing of what people've done right so but sure so I really have enjoyed being part of smile direct We we do change lives. I mean we you know We're our main products is the clear teeth aligners and change as somebody smile is impactful I'm a customer right now myself.

I'm going through treatment and My teeth weren't the worst, but I'm really looking forward to having a smile that I'm not ashamed of right And our CMO John Sheldon every every week sends out a company email about why we're doing what we're doing Inspired by why and we see stories from our customers About how how we've changed their life and it's it's amazing and That's that's been really great to see I would so again, you know our executives Really do kind of constantly hit why we're doing what we're doing why we're in business. What are products? you know bring to our users and How their lives are impacted by it so I would say you know we're We're a clear teeth aligner product if we can You know, I have a statement on what our product does.

I think anybody who's in business should be able to state Here's what where our products Improved something right. This is why we're in business This is how we're helping people or saving people or just you know making making a situation better Yeah Push that out push it from the top and make sure people inside the company are excited to be there Yeah, that's really good. You know, we're you know the next step we're trying to do right now is make sure we're we're interviewing across the board In the standardized fashion. Yeah, I love that and again, right? I mean people think Culture is ping pong tables or foosball or whatever You know and now that's gone so then it's like what is good culture and Right, it's you're saying the good stuff right?

It's talked about why you do it right as a recruiting team I got some I can listen at the end of the day like we can get so caught up in numbers and metrics and placing people and But at the end of the day we're helping people's lives or helping their own lives We're elevating people's careers and I think if you can keep that the forefront from a recruiting perspective I think that's where you start to have culture shift and not being salesy. I think I think on an internal side when it comes to When when it comes to like what does good culture look like within organizations for mo?

I think it's Having clearly defined metrics or having clearly defined interview processes or having a specific reason of why or You know having Having things in place to keep your employees accountable is actually for me good culture. Yeah And so and so you're saying all that as well, which is which is line up which makes me not feel stupid So that's great So well everyone thank you again for tuning in this morning John and I obviously ran long. I knew we would probably run long But again, if you need John what what's the best way if people want to reach out to you to see if they're if you're hiring or whatnot What's the best way to reach you?

You can look on smaller ex-careers page and just ping around them directly Correct. I love it. I love it and then John will have to have you back on to hang out again because we obviously Scracks and service on a bunch of topics Thank you all for tuning in. I appreciate it. John have a great Monday. May and I'm sure we'll be in touch. Okay Sounds great. Thank you. Bye. See you. See you