why not hire junior developers?

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This is For this episode to like really work out well like there's gonna need to be some you know questions and some responses So John good morning what's going on? Let's go ahead and get started because I'm excited to share this episode with y'all Thank you for getting for tuning to guidance counselor 2.0 if you are watching this now or in the future You're like what the heck is guidance counselor 2.0 the guys wearing leopard print and there is pink everywhere Let me describe to you what is happening right now.

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So again Tech the summer tech creative rising six through eighth graders with southern enrichment. Y'all go check it out. All right So I want to go and dive into this episode junior devs. Why do companies not hire junior devs? why Why I you know I just and the reason why like I just tweeted this and I'm gonna read all these treats Because the tweets have been coming in and and I want to share the responses and and go ahead and show your thoughts on here too Why and your experience? Do companies not hire junior devs? Please start commenting. I'm gonna throw your comments up on the screen Let's talk about it Drew goes they don't like our haircuts that's fair so I've been thinking about this I'm I'm it's hard finding senior devs right companies really just come to us to Find senior dev talent and so all I do is I'm in senior land all day right and so I'm just sitting here and I'm just like man like You know listen.

It's fine. I love me and senior engineers like I mean Again, that's what I do have been doing for six seven years. You know four thousand five thousand people later You know, I've been a lot made a lot of good friends a lot of the friends are obviously on this show right now Who's everybody coming but I just don't know why? Companies don't hire more junior devs and maybe and maybe I'm just naive right? Maybe I'm just naive and maybe there's companies out there to hire junior devs Again, so we have comments right now coming in. I love it. I love it Let's see here.

So I've heard I've heard it's because hiring a junior is an upfront investment Yeah, not necessarily immediate contributes to a code base Yeah, I mean listen that makes sense that makes sense. I get that I get that it's a steep learning curve I understand that they're concerned about velocity in momentum in regards to the bottom line. That's very intelligent Drew that's your very smart Elliot they can't train them in our freight if they do then they'll leave that's an interesting take But senior goes junior devs are investments hard to keep them you train them and they leave Yeah, I'll also tell you this is that I think junior devs will stay longer within your organization Then probably a senior dev.

Well if you take the time on them and that's that's my thing right and I feel like I feel like Companies do not have a clear defined roadmap. I feel like companies do not Let's see here like redistribute tasks. So they just keep hiring seniors It's like let's just keep like like what's the definition of insanity like doing the same thing over and over again It's like let's just keep hiring seniors. Let's just keep hiring. Let's just throw let's just throw more seniors at the problem And it's like when when your company's gonna and then they're like oh we keep losing seniors we keep losing seniors They keep losing seniors like well, let's keep hiring.

Let's keep hiring. Let's get that's like when our company is gonna realize Hey, maybe we should just hire junior mid level talent Maybe we should hire just junior mid level talent and then like they're gonna stay with us right cuz y'all y'all comment here y'all comment here um If if a company were to so the junior devs and I want to do this right now The junior devs that are watching right now and your career the more junior career would you stay at a company longer? Yes or no just a simple yes or no go ahead and comment would you stay at a company longer?

If that company took a chance on you and trained you Yes or no go ahead and start commenting. I'm gonna go and make some few more more comments So Conrad goes unfortunately many people only hire Generally when they have their feet in the fire and that's the only people want to help bring up In that scenario people might want to bring help on board, but they don't have time for training Yeah, absolutely. All right here we go. So companies that are watching this companies that are watching this right now Hi, man is watching this here the answers the the and y'all answer My my question was companies if you take time to hire junior devs will the junior devs stay?

Will the junior devs stay longer than probably senior devs look at this yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes In exact position now I took a chance on me and it's like a lot to make me leave Companies you see this hire me to see this Drew's in this exact position. I don't know where drew lives drew. Thank you for tuning in I appreciate it They took a chance on me and it would take a lot to leave LA goes senior devs will leave just as much as juniors see LA. I don't think juniors will leave as much as senior devs I think junior devs will become loyal.

Elliot are you loyal to Lowe's? Are you loyal to Lowe's? Brainy goes out to absolutely stay at a company longer if they won't invest time in me. Boom. There we go Victor Yes, Latina yes Geno yes, probably even longer. They want to be funny. Listen hiring managers. Hey listen. This is why I do this look Look, let's do this again. Here we go. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes I mean we can go ahead and hang the dang show right now if you want You know, I I I I want to see again a few other comments right here that have come in on Twitter Let's see here That's so dang true.

I talking about, you know, the situation if you hire less experienced devs you need some employees who invest time and teaching and involving Them, but there are so many companies out there who don't want aren't able to do that Jonathan Taylor on Twitter log for code says the problem is a vicious cycle companies need to clear the schedule of seniors to help train juniors They don't have enough seniors to do that, but a great way to train to get more as train up juniors companies don't think long-term Nate Taylor Nate shut up Nate. He's been on the live show He goes I've seen it. I've seen it for at least in the last 11 years It's not a new phenomenon.

So so Nate Taylor is a director of engineering at Pluralsight People don't stay at a company long two to three years can be considered long So companies don't want to invest in junior to mid for them to leave. They leave because the company doesn't want to invest It's a cycle absolutely Another one came in Claudia Wu. I'm at Claudia Wu underscore Funny side note even senior devs need somebody who shows them in term processes and stuff Often even this doesn't happen in this way you have a new dang expensive employee who's super annoyed from day one I've had a so a little story time here I had a senior developer architect on project for me that he left because the company did not engage him appropriately in the first week This is what I'm trying this one trying to get across to hiring managers right now Listen, I get it Right, I mean, I'm working with startups right now like like if these startups don't push out new features and code and like figure out their business Like they're gonna go under so I get it, but why are we not putting companies?

Why are we not putting more emphasis on onboarding hiring training? Engaging new employees training up juniors Why are we not doing that? This goes for any industry. This isn't a tech thing right my dad's watching like restaurant industry right it takes time But that's what I'm talking about for me if you do not have the time to train you are understaffed You not understand that do you not understand that? That's like the definition to me of being understaffed Is if you don't have the time to slow down to appropriately train To have swim lanes of how to hire junior devs how to bring on mids how to bring on seniors Right because the whole experience is different right seniors are getting DM here's the deal a senior gets an offer And they accept the offer.

They're still getting DMs until they start for other opportunities So if their experience is not good in the first week. They're gonna bounce. They're gonna bounce A lot of comments have come in. Thank y'all again. I appreciate that. Let's let's kind of break these down a little bit Um, let's see your junior devs are staying at getting promoted at Lowe's higher devs are leaving there you go Listen, listen, I'm just a lowly recruiter. I just about knock my iPad off because I'm so energetic today. I'm I'm just a lowly recruiter right now, but uh I think I'm making some sense Um Casey goes. I think it's just it's just like any relationship right both sides need to feel res- Yeah, I can't it's early anymore coffee if the love's not coming back If the employee doesn't feel taken care of in relation to what they contribute That's a single biggest factor in whether someone wants to stay.

I mean it's it's it's Hiring managers companies if y'all watch this and I'm gonna put this content out y'all better recognize like for real again And if you're if you watch this later and you're like, oh, whatever Tailed doesn't know what they're talking. I mean listen I mean the comment you've seen the comments so far like I'm not this isn't just me Joseph I stuck with the company that gave me a chance to junior for three years three years. They got three years out Joseph Three years. Do you get three years out of your senior dev? No 18 months probably half the time Half the time Makes sense or problem solvers by trade.

Let's discuss the fix. I love it faith. Good morning All levels of devs are leaving for earlier tomorrow now because they're well Elliot, I mean listen bro. This is a whole another conversation another podcast Elliot now I've been DMing on the side on Twitter Just talking about like what's going on right now in the industry and supposedly his company's wanting people back on site Everyone's bouncing so I mean companies Be careful What is what what about this the Alex Kate? Oh, I like that perspective if you don't have time to train you are definition Understaffed I think that hits. I think it's pretty consistent. Do y'all think that's pretty consistent?

I think comments leave leave comments on this. I'm interested y'all thoughts on this If you don't have time to train You are by definition understaffed Let me hear your thoughts Well, I'd love to hear your thoughts. Pia. I was going to say the same thing. This is a problem across many industries when I get Yeah, I mean I mean this is many drew drew degrees with any things true Pia was going to say the same thing. This is the problem across many industries when it comes to startups absolutely Elliot senior devs at Lowe's are training Junior's well good. So they have a training program, but everybody's leaving because everybody's got to come back on site So yeah, it's a problem a little bit Drew junior devs are coming in hot scoop us up now before to it.

I mean listen. Here's another thing that drew brought up You know, I have companies call me to like what's y'all's feet and I'm like 25 30 percent like we can't pay that Yeah for senior devs, but you can pay for junior devs. I'll send drew to y'all who needs a junior dev Gah, they're true pay me for it Just kidding come but literally like that's it like This is it you can get value here. My dad my dad's been washing the 16 minutes through I appreciate that dad On point many companies are understaffed. They're fixes hiring more experience Absolutely. There's a company in Columbia that is giving training classes at text will develop a pool top Yeah, town to hire from currently.

Yeah, I mean again. I you know I was interviewing Eric Yeager yesterday on my live show. He said Amazon has this like train has this like School within Amazon where if like you're a business analyst or like a project manager in want to code You can go through Amazon's coding school and then come out is like a dev one. How cool is that? How cool is that? Drew absolutely I agree with that faith I don't know what I was rambling about Drew goes to the company doesn't have time to train They'd also have to be in a tight spot if a senior. Yeah, I mean And here's another thing companies need to recognize too.

It's like who is I talking to? I was talking to some engineer manager about it. They were like they're like well if this person left If this person left then Then we'd have nobody and it's like so what we need to do is is you always need to hire one more person Then you currently have right all these companies right now that I'm talking to like Taylor they're like hey uh I My my hiring needs are gonna be really big in Q3 in Q3 and I'm like Uh, and I tell them like no you need to hire now like yeah, you need to hire now I can need to happen now.

So um again like that's another thing That that's that's in and of itself and they're really gonna be convert Yeah, I mean listen if you all have to check that out air. Yeah, you're just go to my go to my um go to my page um and Check out that out. It was a great conversation. I'm getting slacks come and get distracted take gosh, I'm out sliker and this thing Uh, so your junior devs are exposing things like documentation that lasts because the 10x the 10x dev I tell you what tech twitters wild sometimes the 10x dev is too much of a bus person Because if they're hip by a bus the team is screwed for weeks and months.

This is the juniors work Yeah, I mean again, right? It's all trade. I think I struck a chord on this. I knew I struck a chord on this. I knew I struck a chord on this But I push it out of the comments um the Alex kates again The situation is even more dire when talking into consideration Taking it because they're sorry how specialized are field. Yeah, I mean listen You know uh My you know, they're my accounting finance recruiting team. They're like hey We need a senior audit person. It's like you can go get a senior audit person anywhere. Just like there you go There's a senior audit person here.

It's like Well, I need a dot net developer with angular Okay, well, they don't have the newest angler. I need another person with that newest angler Okay, well this person has the newest angler, but this we really need Azure Right, and so it's this yeah, so it's incredibly specialized Incredible that's why I that's why I preached all the time to companies that you need to hire for talent and not to reject So you need to hire for talent long term and see how an individual fits with the organization not a specific role again Let me let me say that again companies need to evaluate talent based off how that person could fit within the organization as a whole not with a specific position John 100% 100% right Drew.

I'm the only dev where I'm at if I leave there would be issues Yeah, listen, I'll tell you this is it's I'm I'm I'm I'm hanging out with people this afternoon Who was out of small company and the entire dev team bailed so? Yeah Yeah, oh wow. Just absolutely John. I use it if I were hit by a bus. Yeah. Hey John don't get hit by a bus man Let's say win the lottery hit by a bus. I First off bus is really aren't fast Second off like let's say win the lottery. It's just so John don't don't go get hit by a bus buddy Companies should find culture fits would drive to learn and fill in the gaps Yeah, absolutely right.

So I would hire if I were companies in the engineering side again deal with engineers hiring engineers Evaluating engineers for six seven years. I mean I've been you could argue that I've been evaluating hiring I've been evaluating engineers longer than a lot of like hiring managers in the engineering space evaluate engineers Does that make sense like I've been actually dealing with dev talent longer than actually most hiring managers have and So for me this this is the unlock if companies go hey these this person's tech Fits not quite with this role, but actually we can move them into another part of the organization That's what you need to be evaluating when you interview people constantly.

Yeah, patina out John Cool. All right. Yeah, so this is good. This is good. Um, that's that's honestly that's honestly all I have That was it any comments questions Comments any more comments questions thoughts. We'll go ahead wrap up here a few housekeeping things as always text me six one six one That six that 615 235 565 0 Would love to have you on my texting community. I share my 10 years of experience one text today I don't bother you. I don't so you it's actually two text today because I tell you I'm going live and then I send you a job alert or Job tip so two text today.

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