from opera singer to software developer

full transcript

auto-generated from the audio, so expect a few typos. the audio is the source of truth.

Hello, hello. Thanks for listening to Guidance Counselor 2.0. Listen, I want to give you a quick rundown of what this podcast is and what you're about to get into as you listen to these episodes. We had Guidance Counselors in middle school. We had Guidance Counselors in high school, but we didn't really have Guidance Counselors in college and now as professionals, we don't really have anybody to turn to to ask a quick question to learn something about the job search or to navigate your career. And so that is what I want this podcast to be for you. I want it for it to be a tool for you to navigate the job search and your career.

So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you need to reach me, Taylor at vaco, VACO.com is how to get in touch with me old-fashioned email social media at T D S N T D E S S E Y N. And finally, please rate and review this in the app store because I want this to be discoverable for others so they can navigate their careers. Hope you enjoy the episode. And I go ahead. Who are you? Hi. Yeah, do the tell us about yourself thing that you recruiters love that. Yeah. Hi, hi, everyone. Really, really happy to be here. As Taylor said, we've been in touch for a very, very long time.

Actually, I think if I remember correctly, it was 2020 and I was watching Danny Thompson's LinkedIn series and he had an interview with you. But I just thought you two just vibed so awesomely that I sent your message and I was like, hey, love what you're doing, like really keen to stay on top of your work. And that's exactly what I did. I just kept like following you on social media, kept reading everything you were writing. And I learned so much. And so much of it I've passed on. So at the time, I was transitioning from a career, a seven year career as an opera singer and a new mum.

So I just had my daughter and I was becoming a software engineer. I was learning web development at the time here in Germany. You can probably tell from my accent, I'm not from Germany or the United States, I'm Australian, but I've lived in Germany for, since 2015. So, yep, been here a while now. So yeah, I was transitioning from this totally other career. It's funny you mentioned like this person you're gonna meet with tomorrow, they've done like, what was it, like Freikook Hotel? Yeah, yeah. Actually, I, you know, I tell the simple version of my story, which is like, I was an opera singer and now I'm a dev, but the truth is I once counted, I've heard like over 30 like casual and part time jobs.

So like it's been a lot. I've like, but I like to think that that's why I get along with people from all different walks of life. Cause there's always something that I can connect. I always say people should either work hotel or restaurant or retail, like be in like the retail space because you can work with people forever. If you do that true, true, true. Yeah. If you can, yeah, it's true. I hadn't thought of that, but that's true. I've worked in a cafe, a bar. I worked in like a camping store, which I guess fits retail. So they, a bit of everything. So yeah, I was an opera singer for seven years.

This is the big story that everyone's really interested in, I guess. And then I decided when my daughter was born that I wanted to change careers, the idea of touring and having no holidays, because of course a lot of operas and concerts are done on holidays and nights and, you know, New Year's Eve and things like that. And I was thinking, maybe with a kid that won't be so fun anymore. So I decided to go back to programming. I'd done a tiny bit as a teenager, as a kid. And I thought, oh well, I know there's demand. Let me look into it, see if it's something I like, see if it's something I'm good at.

And sure enough, it was like, pew pew, fireworks. Yes, this works for my brain. This is exactly how I think. Like this is what I should be doing. And so from there, I participated in a German program. So I know this doesn't exist everywhere. I feel very lucky that it exists in Germany, where if you're jobless and you qualify, you will actually get an education voucher from the government that will pay for your reeducation in a unified course, in an area where they need talent. And so tech fits that area. There's a huge lack of tech talent in Germany. And because I'd had a bit of digital marketing experience and had done some programming before as a kid, they said, yeah, you should be good for this program.

So they paid for my entire course, they paid for childcare during the course, paid for public transportation during the course. And I still got my jobless benefit. So like just an incredible Germany. Yeah, I like that top job Germany if you're watching, shout out Germany. Yeah, shout out to the German government for getting me here. But yeah, and then I worked as a software engineer, we'll talk more about that. I'm sure in a second, how I transitioned to that. And now I work as the director or a director of product and engineering for Axel spring and national media and tech and they're like the tech subsidiary of Germany's biggest and news publishing house.

So that's like yeah our websites have literally millions of users on them every single day. So I get to learn all about those projects, get my fingers in all those pies, do a little bit of coding still in the teams to get to know them on a more personal level. And then I just get to I guess talk about it, be part of strategic meetings and I'm also working on diversity and inclusion initiatives for our technical stuff. So a bit of everything, but that's how I like it. That's how I've always been. And yeah, so now I can tell you what, I'm definitely paying that money back to the German government now in my taxes.

So, you know, good job, Germany. You did the right thing. So all right. So the big question that everybody has, and again, lots to talk about in a short amount of time, but how did you break into tech, right? Aside from obviously what Germany provided you, which is obviously amazing. Jared said, Germany out here really setting the tone seriously. So what, like, how did you break in? Like, how did that, how did that happen? Yeah. So before, before I go on my story, I should also say I've written, I've written a book all about this. So if, if like you kind of get a taste of this and you want more information, it's called you belonging tech, you can find on Amazon everywhere.

And it's, actually more of like a practical guide book to how to transition. So it's a little bit of my story in there of course, but it's more like how to. And I do mention and reference Taylor in the book, so he is 100% in there. I said you a copy. I should send you a copy. So yeah, the basic idea is I had done a little bit of coding before entering my course through the Oden project, which is like free online web development course. So I'd done that for about two months to kind of, again, and just see if it was for me, see if I really liked it.

But that actually unknowingly put me way ahead of the other students in my official course when I began it. So I was in this really lucky position where I was in this course learning the stuff, but actually two to three months ahead of where everyone else was. And what that meant is that I got to relearn everything, solidify that knowledge. And so I decided, okay, I'm gonna tweet about this. I'm gonna write blogs about what I'm learning. And I'm gonna actively participate in helping the other students to learn. And as anyone out there who has been a teacher knows teaching is the best way of learning.

And so I learnt so much doing that because other students would have questions about code that I had never had and they'd really make me stop and go, oh yeah, how does that work? Why does that do it? Like, why does that happen in that way? I have never thought about it. But yeah, so it kind of forced me to deepen the learning I'd already had. So I became the class tutor. I actually got hired by my course provided to tutor the other students And I was class representative as well, so that was really fun And yeah, and so that was that was kind of how I really deepened my knowledge as I was learning And this is in the book I kind of break it down into three steps and the first step is of course learning the technical skills, right?

You have to learn technical skills if you want a technical job. It's it's unfortunate sometimes, but it's true And so that was kind of like that bit like tick. Okay. I've got these skills And I had kind of some proof out there. I had a YouTube channel And I had my Twitter feed and I had my blogs so I kind of had done this Quick yeah, first time dev dev linked it up in the comments. Thank you, dev. Yeah, yeah So But okay, I'm fascinated with this. What made you use social media? Right because you know obviously like that's my thing like I'm really passionate about it.

Yeah, what in your brain made you do a YouTube, made you get on Twitter, like what was the, what was it trying to do that uses those platforms? You know, it's so funny. It's like, it's always some little thing that would like lead to some other thing that would lead to some other thing. So it originally started, so for full context and full disclosure, I used to work in digital marketing. So I'm already like a digital native. I already love social media. And I had used it a little bit. I used to stream games on Twitch. So I kind of already had a little bit of exposure to that side of things.

but I hadn't actually connected social media to programming yet. So I hadn't kind of made that connection, but then I kept seeing it represented, sorry, recommended to do 100 days of code. So I used that during the Oden project to kind of tweet out what I was doing. I think you can even go back and like, see, it's, I think it's March 2020. You can actually see my first things where I'm like, oh, today I learned what a loop is, you know? Like it's really cute looking back. I'm like, oh yeah, that was great. And yeah, so that was kind of how it started. And then I found Kadelen Pitt, I found Danny Thompson.

And actually a few of us then started like a Twitter group chat. You know, I actually got invited in, I didn't go out of my way to look for it. Someone just messaged me and said, Hey, you've got really good vibes on Twitter. Do you want to come chat to us? So suddenly I found myself in this group of some of the biggest like tech influences on Twitter. And I was seeing what they were recommending doing. Katelyn was a huge proponent of blogging. And so was Angie Jones on Twitter. And so I started blogging just because they were saying to do it. Before this, I have to say, I associated blogs with recipes and like Yanny Mummies and like yoga and like things that I'm not into, no offense to yoga.

But it was not my vibe. And I was like blogging. Like what is this? Like 97? Like what was this? So when they encouraged people to start blogging, I was like, oh, okay, well, I guess, you know, they know better than I do. So I guess I'll just start writing about what I know. My first degree, my bachelor's degree was in journalism and media. So for me, writing is something that comes really naturally. That's why I wrote a book. You know, it's easy for me. So I thought, okay, well, if I can combine these things, then, you know, maybe it'll help me down the line.

So that's how I started blogging. And then I think it was Francesco Chula. He started YouTubing. And so then he kind of said to me, oh, you should try it. So then I started doing these like JavaScript in under three minutes like like really bite-sized videos almost unedited Like one take kind of three-minute things where I would teach about basic concepts and JavaScript And I think I saw you post like early Doctors and they are well done. I mean you definitely use your media back. You had a great thumbnail for every year It was great Thank you. Yeah, and and so we got to the end of 2020 and and you know I was going into 2021 and I put up this post on Twitter, like just a New Year's Eve kind of thing.

And I was like, oh, I'm so excited. 2021 is going to be the year where I get my first dev job. And I was thinking like May or June because that's when my course officially ended. But that tweet got me a message from a guy at a company who I had met through my Twitch streaming days at a games convention who said to me, hey, we met back then. Don't know if you remember me, but we've actually got a position as a front-end engineer, do you want to apply? And I was like, yes, because I say yes to everything, it's a big part of my ethos, like say yes, show up, this is one of my huge like life models.

And I said, yes, of course, but on the inside, I was like, I don't have a CV, I don't have a portfolio, I have nothing. So I spent like two weeks just basically blasting out, like just coding all day every day, basically just trying to get my portfolio out there. And as part of that portfolio, This does link up to you soon, Taylor. I promise that part of that portfolio, I wanted to use a video because I know I'm good on screen. I'm a performer, right? I'm an opera singer. I know how to perform. So I thought, OK, I should use that. That's a skill.

That's something I should use. So I thought I'll have a little intro video. And so at first I had this video from my YouTube, but it was clearly a YouTube video. Like it wasn't really about me. So I thought, OK, I saw this hint from you somewhere. I don't even know when I saw it. must have been on LinkedIn where you'd said why don't you do like a video cover letter? So I thought okay like I'll answer all the questions I know German employers have about me in two minutes and I just did it. It was just like like what's your experience and I talked about my experience with digital marketing and project management which I had from before my opera career.

I spoke about my tech stack, I spoke about my ability to speak German, do I have a working visa, things like this that I knew would come up because I'm not a citizen of Germany. I knew that would be a question like do you have the right to work here or do we need to sponsor you? So I put all of that into like two-minute video and I read it through you first. I sent it to you and I was like is this okay? Is this really lame? Sorry is this really like ridiculous? And you said like it's great and I still thought it was really like kind of corny but I was like all right well I'll trust Taylor he's the the pro.

So I put it out there and I of course tweeted it and it just went wild. I think it got something like 25,000 views in like 24 hours. And I in that 24 hours after I tweeted it, I got well, yeah, I got 12 leads for jobs in my inbox coming to me in that time. And I hadn't finished my course yet. Like I still wasn't even certified. Like so not in the not in the like loopy way, I'm definitely certified in that way. But suddenly in the in the way of like I didn't have my certificate of my course. My course wasn't finished yet and a week and a half later I had signed a contract for my first Unbelievable.

That's so awesome. So so so I got you distracted. So What were your three steps again from your book? I'm sorry I interrupted because we talked about digital and I didn't want to miss that Oh, I'm I'm happy to chat So I'm a talker, you might have noticed. So yeah, the first is of course learning the technical skills. The second is building a community or finding your networks, so finding your people essentially and starting to talk to those people, building up some sort of profile. So in that I include social media, but I also include going to events such as hackathons or meetups, those kinds of things.

Basically, yeah, finding your people, finding your voice and creating what I call social proof of your technical abilities. I love that social proof. You learn the technical abilities, but no one knows you have those technical abilities unless you actually go out there and talk about them and blogs like YouTube or Twitter or TikTok or whatever you like to use, all of that is a way to show that, to prove that. And you can absolutely, for example, I used to link my blog posts in my cover letters. You know what I mean? Like you can absolutely do that. And then the third step is applying for jobs.

And I talk a little bit about that and about, I have what I call the CARA job application system, which sounds like really snazzy, but it's not that. I think now I've got to remember what all the letters stand for. But basically the idea is like, you research the company before you apply, you contact someone before you apply and you adapt all of your job application documents for the specific job for the specific company. And like even just the tiniest bit of research, like can really give an amazing impression if it's clear to the recruiter that you're not just copy-pasting all the time. Because I know you know this, Taylor, that recruiters are the kings and queens of copy paste jobs.

So they know one when they see one. I 100% percent, 100%. So yeah, I totally believe in doing that. And of course, differentiating yourself, knowing what your, I talk a little bit about like sales and marketing principles, because I know not everyone knows what a USP is. You know, USP for those who don't know, is a unique selling point. It's a core part of marketing for products, but I also believe that as a job seeker, you need to be able to say what makes you different. Like, why are you the person? Like, what can you bring that no one else who's applying can bring? And I bet you like if you go through the steps in my book or you really take a moment and just think about it as well, you don't have to buy the book.

You know, you can find something that is unique about you. Everyone buy the book. You know, I think, so I wanna hear your thoughts on this. I truly think if you put as much time into easy applying to jobs and take that time that you're sitting there on the computer, just apply, apply, apply, apply, apply. Yeah. And get on Twitter, get on Twitch, get on YouTube, get on all these platforms to build community. You probably will find a job faster. Yes. Probably not, it's not definitive. But I mean, it's not definitive, but it definitely helps. And even like, for example, you're talking about social media, but you know, I also talk about like, you know, meetups and these kinds of things.

The more contacts you can make as you're learning, the more people you have who you can contact when you see a job pop up, a job pops up at ABC company. Oh, hang on, I think I met someone from ABC ages ago, even if they're not in the same team, you have someone you can then contact and say, hey, I've seen this job, like I haven't finished my learning yet or my degree or my certificate or whatever it is, my bootcamp. But I'm thinking of applying, do you think it's worth me going for it? Or like, is there some other hoop that I should know about?

Or you could ask them about the interview process as well. like, you know, should I be studying data structures and algorithms for this? Or is it gonna be more like a tour through my GitHub portfolio profile? So you can kind of get that inside info before you even apply. Yeah, I love that. Absolutely. Yeah, Josh comes in and goes, this strategy feels like another set of levels beyond moving past. Yeah, I mean, I'm trying to get out here. I'm basically like the antithesis of what LinkedIn wants. I'm literally the opposite of the easy apply. Dev comes in and goes, this resonates with me so much.

This is the precise reason why I spend so much time on my portfolio and blog also working. So I'll tell you this too. So, and Anna obviously coming from a marketing background, she'll understand this. I've become fascinated. So I've obviously gotten a content creation game. I help consult with content creation type stuff. And I think, Dev, what I would caution you here, and I'll tell everybody this too, portfolio, blog, and YouTuber what we call bottom of the funnel when it comes to marketing terms, right? So you want you so you what you're doing is is that's where people are going to go to you got a you got to use a platform where you find the people, right?

So a LinkedIn a Twitter are and I say those two because that's where the main tech players are LinkedIn and Twitter. That's top of the funnel, right? So top of the funnel is how do I make as many connections as possible with as many people, you're not gonna be able to go, like you're not gonna be able to make connections on your YouTube channel, right? People go to your YouTube channel. So you gotta be aware that, so I'll tell you this, Deb, try to work in a LinkedIn, try to work in a Twitter, everybody's watching today or in the future, leverage something that's more top of the funnel, and then push everybody down there.

And I didn't know if you had any thoughts on that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I was gonna say the same thing, like what you need is a distribution platform, kind of. And I mean, even with a portfolio, right? Like, lots of people think of a portfolio as like it's either done or it's not done. But it's like any coding project, right? Like you start out with your MVP or minimum viable product, and then over time you build on it and you add features. And every time you add a feature or you like add some new content to your portfolio, you can take a screenshot of that, share that on Twitter, share that on LinkedIn, whatever, and just be like, Hey, check out this change I made to my portfolio.

And then more likely, like people are more likely then to actually click on your portfolio than if it's just listed in your LinkedIn profile. Because then again, like I talk about this in my book that a lot of technical people, they have this idea that like, oh, you know, I don't want to like promote myself. I don't feel comfortable talking about myself. I understand this totally by the way. Like, you know, I just want my work to speak for itself. But I like to say, your work can't speak if nobody is listening. So you need someone to be actually looking at it. You know what I mean?

Like someone has to actually be paying attention to you to see what you're doing. So it's unfortunate and it sucks, especially for people who aren't like extroverts. Like I know for me it comes a lot more easily. And I accept that. Like that's a privilege I have. But at the same time, it's like, you have to kind of go out of side of your comfort zone and get comfortable bragging, get comfortable talking about all the cool stuff you're doing, get thinking pictures of yourself at events. All of this stuff pays off because it helps people go, oh, hey, who is this person? Maybe I'll check out what they're doing.

I mean, I hate to say it. Hey, say it. So let's say this. Let's say you attended three conferences this year. Right. It's social proof. It's like you said, like you said, you could attend three conferences this year to try to find a job. And if you don't post on social media, the only people that can vouch here, the people that were there, but let's be honest, you probably didn't network well enough for them to vouch for you. So then you interview for interview for a job at High Range and goes, so like how involved do you in the community? Like what What are you doing?

You're going, well, I went to three conferences and yes, the higher major may believe you, but if you can, if you are posting on social media and that higher major goes, checks you out. He's like, oh wow, right? You're out, you're out doing things. There's, there's, you know, me and my content team talk about this a lot. There's this perception of posting is activity. Like you're doing more when actuality, you're doing nothing more. You're literally just doing the same thing. You're just posting it. And so I love that social proof so good. I mean, I did. Yeah, and I have to say, sorry, sorry, just to butt in for a second.

Especially for juniors or people who haven't had their first tech job, it is so important that you really use that LinkedIn featured section that you use recommendation section. Like if you meet someone at a conference and you just get along great and they've seen you, I don't know, talk about something authoritatively, you can even say to them, let's like, do you wanna swap references? Like I'll talk about the stuff I know, you know about, you talk about the stuff I know about And then you have those links to your blog that shows that you have technical knowledge. That counts for a lot because you're essentially saving the recruiter or the hiring manager that little bit of time.

They can see directly in your profile, oh, hey, this person knows about React. And I don't even need to question that because I can see this article here about hooks and I can see that they actually know all this stuff. You know, it makes it easier for them. easier you can make life for recruiters and hiring managers, the more likely you are to get through to the next phase. I talk about this a lot in my book, but it's about risk reduction. People often think about themselves in terms of like, oh, let me talk about everything I'm great at, but what you actually, in my opinion, need to do is you have to think about what risks does a recruiter see when they look at your profile and how can you prove to them that that risk isn't there.

Oh, yes. I haven't had a job before, but here's all the stuff I know about. Here are all these people talking about how I'm a great colleague, you know, it kind of, it, as I said, proof. It's proof that it's not something they need to worry about and then they can feel more comfortable sending you on. Yeah, I mean, you know, a lot of, you know, I'll tell you this and this just popped in my head is that, so as a recruiter, we have to ask for references, skills assessment. Yeah, because nobody has proof. Mm hmm. Nobody has proof. So we have to put you through these steps so we can develop our proof to the hiring managers.

So if you're already out there, here's the deal. If I meet anybody, any speaker, anybody at a tech conference, I'm not gonna put you through the ringer. Because I have social proof, and but the thing is is that the digital media scales that to know. And I actually wanna, I wanna, Somebody post them and that was so good. Let's see here. Randall said it best. This is what I'm so passionate about. We are so comfortable posting about our weekend trips in the late, but we don't post about our professional lives. And it's like, if we can don't post that lunch or coffee, post that tech conference pick, like that's the unlock.

Like when you can start going around, and I've been, and actually I tweet about this this morning, like, and actually somebody's doing it, Steve's doing it. I said, if you have any problems getting started, just summarize somebody else's content. Yeah. Like literally, maybe write some sort of book review about some sort of technical book that some sort of lady has written, I don't know. Exactly, yeah. But like, literally you could go to Anna's YouTube page and she has all these three minute videos. If you came up with a tweet thread with each single video, one, Anna's gonna retweet that every time, you're gonna get more eyes on you And then you're also gonna be able to meet new people because of it.

And so that's something that I'm really starting to be big out, but shout out Steve, obviously for doing that. Steve recaps my show every day and gives his stuff. It's just such a great idea. And I mean, the other thing, oh sorry, no, go on. No, go ahead. I just was gonna say. I was just gonna add more stuff. I can just keep adding stuff all day. I was gonna say, I just wanna tackle another common thing that comes up when I tell techies to do this, right, when I tell engineers to do this stuff. They often say, I don't know if I have anything new to say, or I'm new, I don't have anything interesting to post about.

And I just want to reiterate that it doesn't matter and that everything you post has some sort of value. And if you are posting stuff that is interesting to other beginners, and you're saying it in a way that works for your brain, like let's say you're struggling with loops and then someone explains it in a way that just works for you. Post about that because that could help someone else who's struggling with loops. And furthermore, if you can then start interacting with other people who feel that niche, like I use Danny Thompson as an example a lot because you know, I love the guy. But he like, I started one of the big ways I started gaining followers was actually just interacting meaningfully on his tweet threads.

and I would actually not just say like great job or totally agree, but I would say yes, I've had this experience in XYZ or I've found that blah, blah, blah, or hey, that's funny. I made a video about that last week. Here it is, you know, and just by interacting with those bigger accounts that are doing similar things, then you find people who are looking for that content anyway. So you can expand your network even if you don't feel like you're particularly original or you're particularly an expert on anything, you can absolutely get started. My first blog post was on what what the difference is between class and ID in HTML and CSS.

This is not like complex, like DevOps style and stuff. This is basic, but it helped me to understand and solidify that knowledge. And I got quite a few people coming to me being like, oh, thank you, I was wondering. So it helps people, it really does. Yeah, Titus comes in here, I need some recommendations. Titus hit me up, I don't know where you're located. So there's not, I don't know about Europe, but I know the US, there's no really central hub to find tech conferences. It's kind of like. Same problem, same problem. Yeah, so Titus, I actually have a list created on Twitter called, I think Taylor's Tech Conferences or something.

Basically, I literally took like an hour to go through all of the tech conferences that either have attended or follow to basically keep up with call for speakers and stuff like that. Titus go check that out if you go to my list on my Twitter profile you can find that But yeah, there's no unfortunately no set place which which really needs to happen all right Last few minutes here. I know you and I could probably keep talking and we probably need a part too, but Is there so so so I'm gonna end with this question, but we can chop up. Yeah, we do This is the question I started to ask all guests because this called guidance counselor 2.0 because we had guidance counselors in elementary school, middle school, high school.

We don't really have them now. What would you tell your younger self when it comes to career stuff? You know, I've thought about this a lot because I studied one year of software design and development in high school and I dropped it, right? I didn't keep going with it. I had lots of subjects I was good at and in that class I was the only girl and I just felt socially isolated. The boys were lovely, they weren't purposefully trying to exclude me, but it was just like, they just wouldn't actively include me either, right? So I dropped that subject. And I often think back and I go, what would have happened if I'd kept going?

And like, what would have happened if I'd kept trying? And, but the thing is, I also dropped music and I was an opera singer for seven years. You know? And so I kind of think like, in a way, the advice I will give to people is the same advice my mom always gave me, which is do something that you love and that you're good at. If you can find something that you love and that you're good at and just follow that, then that's like a great recipe for success. I'm not saying you must love your job. Of course, there are plenty of people who do stuff just for money, power to you, got no complaints.

But I'm just saying, like if you're struggling with what you can find, then those two things together will help you at least get started in a direction. Because I have to say, I don't regret going through many, many different jobs and many, many different ups and downs. And I think I made the right choice back then, you know. And so when I look back, even though I think, oh, you know, maybe I could have been an engineer at 22 instead of at 32, I nevertheless, I think I made the right call. And I think I followed my passions and I followed where I was comfortable.

And it gave me a great life experience. It gave me like, it made me who I am today. And I really feel like that's the the best thing you can do, what you like and what you, just what, yeah, what you love and what you're good at. If you can find something that combines those two things, then you'll find some version of success that works for you. Well, and I'll tell you this too, and that advice is so good. And I would say it's very, very relevant to junior devs because a lot of times are like, you know, what should I do with my project portfolio?

Like find something you like and enjoy and develop a solution around that. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I talk a lot, when it comes to projects in portfolios, I know that there are a lot of different opinions. My opinion is always better to have one to two excellent, like totally finished, beautifully made projects, right? Then to have like 10 little code snippet kind of projects. Because that shows that you can work at scale. And I promise you, any junior devs out there, when you work your first job and you see a real code base the first time you're going to be intimidated because it is so much larger than you expect.

And so you're much better off getting used to that level of complexity. How do you modularize things? How do you split up your code? How do I organize tasks for myself? All this kind of stuff, you're much better off learning that with one to two massive projects than just like, oh, yeah, here's a to do list. Here's a clock. Here's whatever. You know, so I really think I really think that yeah that kind of complexity is is worth pursuing and You're right like if you have a particular area of interest Go for if you have like me some some sort of strange career background Like for example one thing I could have done if I'd kept going I probably would have like if I hadn't found my job when I did is to create a mock theater website You know I could have I could have done something like that and like done like here's an example of a website for a theater And like here's where you can buy tickets or whatever, you know, and you can go as deep as you like with that Well, and I know we just tied in and we just came up with another idea.

There's literally no website to collect conference Well, they are this is the weird thing. It's the same here Like there are websites to collect conference data, but each one has different events Like none of them actually have all of them and some of them are like salesy and some of them Just look like something that someone's thrown together in three minutes And it's like I don't know I found it very hard I started a new wiki page inside my company because another thing I'm responsible for is not just getting on stage myself but helping our engineers get on stage, giving them performance coaching, helping them brainstorm ideas for talks, helping them be someone to practice with so I can give them honest feedback before they go.

So part of what I've been trying to do is create this list of events and it's really hard. There's a lot out there and yeah, you could go on forever. Absolutely. Well, Anna, thank you. That was awesome. We will do a part two. Absolutely. There's been a bunch of people that that wants part to Twitter space. They tuned in today. We appreciate it. Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube, Twitter. It was great to see y'all today. Anna, stay on real quick as we wrap up so I can say bye to you. But y'all have a great rest of your Monday. If you like this episode, share it. I feel like there's There's a lot of good nuggets for people to learn from.

And we appreciate you all at time. I love you, Dan. So much energy. It's fantastic. Love y'all mean it. Y'all were a great one. Bye. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode. And I am very grateful. Because you know why? There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes. And I myself rarely finished an entire episode. So I appreciate you so, so much for listening. quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the app store. I want this to be discoverable to others. And the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it, please, like right now, unless you're driving, then don't do it.

So thank you again. If you need to reach out to me, Taylor at Vaco.com or at T. Dessin on all social media handles. And I hope you have a fantastic day.