restaurant, factory worker, hotel manager, software developer

full transcript

auto-generated from the audio, so expect a few typos. the audio is the source of truth.

Hello, hello. Thanks for listening to Guidance Counselor 2.0. Listen, I want to give you a quick rundown of what this podcast is and what you're about to get into as you listen to these episodes. We had Guidance Counselors in middle school. We had Guidance Counselors in high school, but we didn't really have Guidance Counselors in college and now as professionals, we don't really have anybody to turn to, to ask a quick question to learn something about the job search or to navigate your career. And so that is what I want this podcast to be for you. I want it to be a tool for you to navigate the job search and your career.

So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you need to reach me, Taylor at vaco.com is how to get in touch with me old fashioned email social media at tdssent, d-e-s-s-e-y-n. And finally, please rate and review this in the app store because I want this to be discoverable for others so they can navigate their careers. Hope you enjoy the episode. I'll give the people what they want. Doc, get down. Who are you? What do you do? And then I'll start peppering you with questions. All right. Well, my name is on the screen. So I'm Ray Morrison. And I'm a front-end software engineer at OC Tanner.

Really kind of a recent development because I'm also a boot camp grad and a career pivotters. So I love it. So let's talk about career pivoting. talk about career pivoting, right? So I was a career pivoter, right? I was in restaurant industry like you, then I was a musician, then I turned recruiter, right? So I want to talk about your background, just kind of set the stage of basically like how many like how many jobs you've held like kind of your story abbreviated story like we talked about off-air but if you can give the people just set the stage and I can start kind of teen you up with some stuff.

Sure, like all the way back like we talked about before or yeah, yeah, Cool. Okay, so you know in high school I needed my first job and so I come from Humbroot so I started working at a Dairy Queen right down the road from where I lived. What's your favorite blizzard flavor? We got to talk about that real quick. Yeah, well whenever I was in whenever I worked there I used to take vanilla ice cream and just blend nerds into it and that was it. So okay so you're one of those guys that likes like the really sugary can't like not chocolate you're more of like the fruity.

Yeah, I'm a fruit and gummy kind of guy, not some other kind of stuff. I'm a big chocolate guy, that makes sense. Well, we'll, we'll disagree on that for this. But otherwise, I like you. So keep going. It's Andy Wong in the comments. I have to say hi. Yeah, Andy, what's up, buddy? It's great to see you former guest of show Andy. I don't know if we've scheduled around two with you and I, but let's get that done. So yeah, okay, she'll do. So yeah, no, I started out at Dairy Queen. And then whenever I went to college, I needed a part-time job because I had no financial assistance.

BAFSA uses your parents' income, even if they're not helping you with tuition. I was a full-time student, a music major. And they want music to be your full-time job, but couldn't really do it. So I started out at a Jimmy John's, worked my way through there for four years, started out as a delivery driver, ended up becoming the GM. The same guy owned like five locations in my area. So I've managed four of them. I'd go wherever they needed me. Hey, it wasn't great. So I ended up bailing to go to Taco Bell for a year. Schedule wasn't great. I got tired of doing like 7 PM to 5 AM, then turn around and coming back, be back at noon.

Raise the concerns to my manager. She kind of dismissed it, so I bailed. Ended up managing a B-stro for a courtyard Marriott for a little while, before just kind of hopping out of management altogether. I'm not saying I'd never go back, but now that I'm in the software engineering track, I'm not sure I want to get out of the IC track. And then I ended up working two jobs for a little while. I was a bartender at a casino while also starting my factory job making car parts. And I had a stretch of like 90 days where there was no days off. I had two days off, but it was because I switched shifts with people to get the afternoon off from the bartending gig.

So that was fun. And then whenever the rebids came up for the schedule, I had very low seniority. So I bailed on the casino, took the factory full time, which I was already doing full time anyway. But the downside really was that it was a 45 minute commute each way at plus turnpike. So every day, I'm spending a couple bucks on turnpike tolls, two hours on the road, picking up my kids. Kind of sucked. So eventually, I lost that job over some workplace of politics. And in a fit of rage, I was kind of like, I'm not doing anything I don't want to do every day.

I mean as far as employment goes anyway. I mean there's things we all got to do that we don't like but I wasn't gonna work for low wages and The overwork hot in the summer cold in the winter again So I dabbled with code ever since I was a kid But I mean between whenever I was younger It was always the choice of work hard and learn something or play video games and get the dopamine heads And then as I got older it was well, you just worked all day Do you really want to work some more at night or would you rather take the dopamine?

So whenever I lost the job of the factory, I decided to take the lead, then rolled in General Assembly's code in boot camp and here I am. So let's talk. So my big thing is like, you know, people have said they're like, wow, that's crazy. Lots of jobs. You just quickly got into General Assembly. Talk about why you picked General Assembly in your mindset, right? because we talked about that off there about how you needed something. You mean General Assembly over other boot camps? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, easy decision for me. There were a couple I was looking at. I mean, I know I looked at a bunch.

I don't remember which ones were my final two or three. I want to say flat iron was in there somewhere. But General Assembly just went out because I need a full-time program where I have to be in class every day because I need someone to hold me accountable. Like I need that third party of accountability. So when people ask me, do you think I should take a bootcamp? Was it worth it? There's no yes or no. It's really, it depends on you. For me, I needed that structure. But if you were the type of person who can just watch you to meet courses or take free code camp, by all means save the $20 grant.

But general assembly one for me just from scheduling, their full-time course ended at five. Another one ended at six. And the other is only offered flex. So flex wasn't going to do it for me. and then I had to have my kids at cheer practice at 6 p.m. So my days ended up looking like general assembly nine to five, then go upstairs and make sure my homework gets cloned into my laptop before I leave the wifi. Yeah. And then drive my kids to cheer practice and then hop on my hotspot to do whatever I could, log into TA hours and do my homework for an hour and a half in the car.

And then get back home and still have to do the rest of my homework until probably eight or nine p.m. after everyone goes to bed. and hopefully have time for games afterwards. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So let's talk about this. I mean, in regards to just the work ethic, right? I mean, you said yourself you needed the accountability. I mean, what's your biggest advice for people who, I guess, I don't know, just really struggle to get going. I know what I'm trying to get at here. I'm trying to ask the question and tee it up. But basically, what's your biggest advice for career changers going into bootcamp or going into software?

Well, you can attack it from different angles, but I made a post yesterday and I said something similar. If you're waiting for the right time, whether it's to have a kid or to make a career pivot or quit your job, there's never gonna be one. There just really isn't. It'll never feel like it's gonna be comfortable and it's gonna suck. But if that's your goal, like the biggest device you can get is just to get out there and start doing something because there are so many others that don't. So I mean, and then once you graduated bootcamp, Junior's often will be like, well, what do I do now?

And it's just like build something. Yeah. Do it then. And I think too, I think to compliment you is just like, even for somebody who needs the accountability, you still put in the work though afterwards. Right, I mean, you still grind it. I mean, you were balancing family life, you know, and then work life. What's your advice to junior devs from that perspective? Like the balancing of like all of that? It's a lot. It's a lot. I mean, it's tough because your partner, if they aren't in the tech, doesn't get it at all. So once I graduated boot camp, she thought, okay, well, you have the certificate, you should get a job now.

It's great. Easy. Right? And I was like, okay, well, I still need nine to five free for job search and development. Pretend like I have a job right now. And for her, that was really hard because she was really salty a lot of the time. Well, you're not getting paid to do stuff and I need help with this or like, why are we sending our kids to a babysitter when you're not working? I'm like, well, if I'm going to keep learning the skills I need to learn, especially from like a data structures and algo's side, which by the way, is something that I don't practice and didn't practice.

And I'm probably an outlier because I've never solved the leak code problem. So like she didn't understand that there's that entire other side of the interviewing as a skill and that's something you need to develop as well. Yeah. And you can't do that if you don't have the time and you especially can't do it while you're caring for an infant and a toddler. Correct. Correct. So that's tough. And that's what I wanted to get at right there. And that's what I talk about all the time. The job search, the whole entire job search process, from a boot camps to the studying, the training, it is a full time job.

You have to approach it. Now, for those of you who have a job and want to career shift, I talk about obviously maximizing the little bit of downtime you have, Frank comes in here again right here, OMG had the same conversation with my wife as well again. I mean, I think, I don't want to get into marriage talks here, but I will tell you this, I think expectation setting is incredibly important, especially when it comes to when you have to grind, right? So I've been kind of passionate lately about, I don't, I used to say, let me help you find your dream job. Like that used to be kind of my thing, but what I've really become mindful of is, I don't think there's such thing as a dream job.

I think there is a dream job for the current season of life you're in. And for me, I think with Ray and everybody else, you know, with Frank setting expectation is that the season of life that Ray was in required, like for him to buckle down and work eight to five, even though he wasn't working. And it's all about that expectation setting. Ray, I want to ask you this. So you completed your bootcamp, right? And what, like what next, right? Yeah, you're right. You got a certificate. Great. How did you find your first job? Walk me through the interviewing, the, if you did the networking, like how did that all come about?

Sure. Just going back to the last one real quick though. Yeah. The big thing to remember is that my pivot happened after being fired from a job and I chose instead of finding another mediocre job to just go all in and also at the time I had a baby on the way. So it might not have been the best decision. We had a baby during my third project during the week. It was a group project, so my team carried me. It was great. But I really do recommend having a nest egg of like six months to even a year's worth of bills just sitting there if you can.

It's not always possible. like seriously. I wouldn't necessarily recommend doing what I did. I have a great support system. My grandmother has always been there to help me out. At one point, I really needed help. And she just handed me a thousand bucks to help cover some bills that I had. Like, I had the people in place to support me. If you don't have that, jumping into the deep end without an income, not the best decision. That's good now. But to your question, what after bootcamp, a lot of of a lot of my stuff was networking. But the day after I graduated Bootcamp, on my LinkedIn feed, it said, people you may know or suggested connection or whatever, it was one of my cousins on my dad's side who I'd never really talked to.

But it said software developer, and I didn't even know that I had any developers in the family, so I requested them, and I was like, hey, just graduated at Bootcamp, do you know anybody who's hiring? Like, since we don't talk, I didn't wanna be like, hey, can you give me a referral? I really was genuinely just looking like, I didn't know nothing about this industry. Do you know of anybody who's got something? I'm gonna wrap you, I got goosebumps. I get goosebumps when things are good. That right there, what Ray said, that's it. Can you say that one more time? Basically, you didn't know that person, you didn't wanna like ask for something.

Yeah, yeah. You don't know people, don't go just asking for stuff. Give me job is not a good look. And it started happening to me now that I'm gaining an audience. I go over the past six months, I'm up a little over 1,500 followers now, and I'm starting to get messages, and a lot of them are, hey, give me job, and it's not a good look. I don't even dignify it with a response half the time. Yeah, good. But so instead of giving me a list of companies that he thought were reputable or whatever, because he's a senior software engineer, so I figured he'd had the experience, he'd know where I should start.

Right. And since he was family, I felt comfortable asking that question. I wouldn't even ask random people, do you know who's hiring? That's not a question I would ask just simply. Good, good. So he said, yeah, you know, we are sending your resume. Following morning, a recruiter reached out and had set up an interview. And then I talked to her, I made it through the screening. She was like, let me put you through a screening call with one of our engineers. And he liked me. So they were like, here's a take home assessment. And the, I think it was on co-dility, maybe it was a different one.

But it said in the instructions, any programming language, it had JavaScript listed, which is what I was trained in. So whenever I went to go take it, it was like Python only. And I went, so I messaged the recruiter and I said, I mean, is this an error or should I take a week and familiarize myself with the basics of Python? Yeah, we're not in a rush. Go ahead and just take a week. So I learned some Python and then went and took this assessment and there were two, there were two algos and they were like really simple. Like we pre-filled most of this for you.

Here's the number one and number two. Show us which parameter goes where to make this equation come true. And then one more that was like return the sum of all the arguments. And I was like, I learned Python for this, but I ended up passing that with flying colors because it really was an easy assessment. The rest were multiple choice and I think I missed like two of them. It wasn't difficult and then I got called back again for a final panel interview and at this point this is my first interview process and this panel was six people. It also was sounds like was this like your very first interview too?

Yeah, after I graduated I got an interview and then made it into the final rounds where I was in front of the people. You have been hearing two seniors, a hiring manager and I think someone else from upper management somewhere. I can't remember exactly the titles of who I try connecting with these people after the interview process to none of them Except it was said because I liked the guys we ran over on time We were laughing we were joking they were like They they clearly had like one guy that they like to give a hard time. So I jumped in on it and they loved it So it felt like more like having a beer with the boys than an interdural Yeah, and then they put a hiring freeze on like this was right before Christmas it was Q4, so we're really not doing much.

And I felt that it went so well that I took my foot off the gas and stopped applying. I was like the checks in the mail, dude. Mistick, because this was like December 22nd, and I didn't hear anything until about like the January 8th. So sure, it was the holiday season, and whenever I said something, people said, oh, you deserve it. You came out of a boot camp, take a break. But like, you gotta realize that if you're not applying, like if you apply today, you might not get a call until a week from now. But if you, you know, you've got that pipeline rolling, you skip a week, now you have a dead week in the future where you're not getting anything.

Right, oh, it's so good, so good. I love that. Yep. That happened. And then from there, really, I just stopped being stupid about it. I did stop cold applying. So like, I'm not one of the people that you see, you're saying, you know, I've put in 200 applications and not getting anything back. Like I was getting rejection sometimes, but I wouldn't get them for like days or weeks. So I know a human saw it. I wasn't getting rejected by ATS. And then if I was getting all sorts of screening calls, I was getting a few recruiters a week. And eventually I had a connection approach me and say, hey, you know, I love your stuff.

We've talked a few times. And he said, hey, I've been approached for a contract. I don't have time for it. Can I refer you? I'm like, yes. So I talked to the guy and it was a pretty short conversation. Guy was pretty cool. He brought me on and he asked, you know, what do you want to make? I was like, I don't know, 35, 37 an hour. I'm a junior. I don't know what's marketable. I don't want to high-value. And he goes, how about 40? I'd rather you be happy and just pay you a few dollars extra. So I know that you're not like harboring summers that meant looking to jump.

And I was like, that's the way it's done right there. Higher managers. That's what's done. So further that, he didn't have the gig in the bag yet, and because he didn't want me to wait around for a couple of weeks, he was like, hey, how about, it was gonna be a React front end, which I am familiar with, but an ASP.NET Core back and C-sharp, which I don't know. And he was like, how about, you know, you take the week, I'll send you like 10 hours worth of labor, and you just try to build me a dummy site. Just familiarize yourself with the stack. Man sent me 400 bucks right up front, just because he didn't have anything for me yet and didn't want me waiting a couple of weeks.

So very blessed in the whole like, it was networking, man. It was your net, yeah, because you're networking. Yeah, it was just a peer, like not a hiring manager, just another fellow engineer who was doing some contract work and didn't have any bandwidth from more contracts. So quick question though, just popped in my head. When it comes to networking, so I've been a little bit more tactical. I've had some one on ones recently. I usually show two ways to do it. You can search for jobs on LinkedIn, which isn't the best way and it's a little tedious because then you gotta go to the company and then you gotta search for maybe recruiters or senior managers or you can literally just connect with people in your city with your skillset and just talk to them, which, but then you also said basically you leverage the, like you may know on LinkedIn.

Just how did you network with people? Like were you sending just blank DM's to strangers on LinkedIn? I'm an outlier in like all these fields. No, in fact, I didn't send connection requests, period. If I saw like my dream jobs like working at Riot Games, so sure I went and looked at Riot Games engineers and sent them some requests. One of them accepted and we had a conversation after a few months, but only because he had hopped on LinkedIn to find a new job. So he had been inactive, then saw my request, except then we talked. But especially for my first 500 connections, you might want that 500 plus badge, especially whenever you're getting started because it shows you've been on LinkedIn and whatever.

It gives you a little bit of- It's perception. I talk about all the time, it's perception. Yeah, so I didn't send requests at all unless we were talking in a comment section and I wanted to talk to you more or something like that. But I didn't go and just be like, Oh, here's the people in your field or search for software developer and start sending people notes. I might have done that my first week because that's what outcomes told me to do, but I quickly did not do that anymore. I just started trying to be consistent with posting and the way that I approach posting content, coming up with ideas is hard.

So the way I approach it is, and this might sound bad at first, is how to manipulate people, the human psyche. And what I mean is if I scroll past something on LinkedIn and I couldn't resist giving my two cents, if there was a question asked that I really wanted to give my input on, even if none of you care, if I wouldn't be able to scroll past that without voting, without commenting, then neither will you. And so post things that invoke a response that people can't resist scrolling past or they can't scroll past, that's what I mean. So whether that's a poem like, what's your favorite programming language?

and depending on the size of your audience, it might get a different amount of things, but things that people fight over is HTML a programming language. Guarantee you, you've got a dumpster fire in the comments. But it's a new one. Yeah, whenever I want to, whenever I want to burn something down, I always post about resumes or LinkedIn profiles and just people lose their minds. Yeah, so there are things. But basically I just started trying to, at first I was very like angsty towards boot camps because I think GA does a lot of things wrong. I think that there's very little screening or grouping by skill level, and it really slowed down the pace for accelerated students who are doing better in the class because of the people who are interrupting a lot for simple questions, syntax errors.

And it's very clear that they didn't check those assessments and split you into groups by it at all. It's just a cash grab. So I made several posts complaining about that stuff. And my career coach from GA messaged me like, Hey, your audience right now should be employers, not angsty bootcamp grads. Maybe you don't wanna do that. And I just kind of was like, eh, and we've barely talked since. So, I love it. And then at some point, I mean, there's only so much ragging on boot camps you can do. And I'm not about just do nothing, but be a negative Nancy. Sure, sure. So at some point, especially at the challenges, how do you post like you're an authority on something?

whenever you don't have anything to show for it. So whenever I was just freelancing, like once I got the solid freelance gig, I was like, well, I have a little bit. But then once I successfully got a full-time role in less than a year after leaving a different industry, now all of a sudden I have something to talk about. And whenever I post about my story and where I was a year ago, people really seem to resonate with that and the post kind of takes off. Yeah. But I mean, there's also an element of luck to it because like I put 20 or 30 minutes into writing something that hits the character limit that I have to refactor and it gets like in the first hour 400 views.

And then I get something where I'm like the one from a few days ago is a prime example. I was like, hey, I was playing video games last night and talked to a guy in his 22 wanted to learn to code, but thought he was being gate kept out because of a CS degree. And after talking about it for a little while, you know, he said he's probably going to take a bootcamp or whatever. I think I might have just changed someone's life and that's crazy. And all of a sudden people or like 5,000 views in an hour or 300 likes, it's just like, that felt like a throw away post to me.

It was very little effort, it took me just a minute for a few sentences. The engagement ratios are weird, man. Well, I will tell you this. And then I'm gonna get to Eric's comment here in a second. But I will tell you this, the shorter form content, if we wanted like, talk X's and O's here, the shorter form content on LinkedIn does better. If any of y'all post really long things, I personally never read it because I don't have time. I usually try to keep mine to like, I guess if you wanna go lines like six to eight lines, and that's pretty much where I like to keep it.

So Eric comes in, I kinda hate that you have to worry about trying to come up with Clever Post for his folks, I'm being a developer. So here's the deal. Oh, and I want, I also want Ray to chime in on this, but I don't think you have to worry about coming up with Clever Post. The thing is what Ray just said is that, He like he wants to do both. He just posts. I think the thing is is that The importance I want to get across here is the importance of putting yourself out there and It's a little bit of a game you have to play and I have this conversation all the time with people I don't want to do it.

I get it. I Understand but I'm gonna say look at Ray Right look at Ray Right, yeah, that's on this. Yeah, I do. I think the question is, do you want to do it? So do you want to be a LinkedIn influencer or don't you? And you don't have to be. You also don't have to think too hard about coming up with clever posts. The thing is, it is a bit of a mindset shift at first. But if you start looking at everything through the lens of, is this a piece of content? Which does sound like it's a little taxing and you're constantly thinking about LinkedIn and it goes right back to dopamine, doesn't it?

But no, if I'm talking to somebody, people come to me and they'll ask questions, especially because of what I've done in the past year. They're just like, okay, well, you quit, I mean, factoring job and got into software in like seven or eight months. How'd you do it? Here's a question I have in a specific thing. And then I find myself typing them out of response and then I go, this is a post. Exactly. Literally all the questions you're already answering every day is a post. Yeah, which is, so I mean, I've definitely sent somebody a long form DM and then gone back and copied and pasted it and then refactored it into a slightly better post the following day.

And if I don't have anything, I don't have anything, but what I used to do, well, still do, but I haven't been, you know, flushed with ideas lately. I just keep the sticky notes app open on my desktop. And whenever I come up with something, it's like post ideas. Here's bullet points. And if I need a link or an image, I'm like, okay, put that in my personal Slack to me Yeah, message and then just put a note that it's there and then whenever I go to make the post it's just like okay whatever link or image I had it's there. Right. All right so as you wrap up here as you wrap up here how did you get the job at OC Tanner?

Okay that one's easy again linked in networking so one day I had an issue with my freelance gig and I was trying to debug something I don't remember what and I was like hey does anybody know asynchronous JavaScript both the dot I've been posting that on LinkedIn. Yeah, and I asked for help. And a developer from Ocetanner came to me and was like, hey, yeah, I've got a slow day. I'll help you. He sat with me through five free Zoom calls. Like four hours on Zoom, just helping me with this for an entire afternoon and at the end of it. We were talking about our jobs and where we've been in the past and I turned out I had applied to Ocetanner on his referral as like a, I don't really know you, but I'll give you a referral back in January.

Nothing came of it, but this time I applied for a role while I was screen sharing with him, and we talked about what I should put for salary ban and I had improved freedom, little statements I was writing. It was nothing crazy as far as input goes, but ended up using him as a referral, got a call, had a single interview, really didn't know where I stood. Like a lot of the times, like I told you, that last, that first interview I had felt like a beer with the bros. This was awkward because like the first 45 minutes we spent talking, then they were using a live share extension that had some bugs and latency issues.

So I lost like five, 10, 15 minutes of the code challenge to technical issues, didn't get to finish the thing and then didn't even get to the section where they're like, Hey, do you have any questions for us? And I usually have a word document with some common ones. And I make sure to bold, which ones I want to ask in this interview based on what kind of company it is and what I've gleaned from talking to people. I do want to give you one before we kill this. So I've got one that I think everybody will love. Yeah, good. Yeah. And so then after that interview, I have waited a week.

I got a call on the rest of history I made it in. But one question that I think is great. You always want to know what kind of company that you're going to go into culture wise. But if you ask, what's the company culture like? They're going to give you the standard bullshred HR response. Who's great? We value our employees blah, blah, blah. Better question to ask. And I've said this before publicly, but a lot of you don't know me. You just ask, do you have any top performers on your team? And if so, what makes you view them that way, whether it's their work ethic or personality or whatever?

Now, if they respond with like, yeah, Taylor's great. He always drops whatever he's doing whenever. We need him to come in off hours or work over, or he's always on call. Just things that indicate that you're working long hours or that the way they value their people is by the amount of time they contribute. versus Taylor's great. He's a great mentor. He's always there to help our juniors when we need him. He's contributed some stuff that's really saved the company a ton of money. Now you know that they value you for your skills and what you bring to the table and that you're not necessarily going to be in a sweat factory.

So good, man. You know what I'm gonna do, right? Just because obviously I'm gonna start asking at the end. So I have a question about to ask you to wrap up, but I'm gonna start also asking people their favorite interview question. So I'm gonna start doing that so people can learn from that. So that's wonderful. All right, right, last question, we'll wrap it up here again. Thanks y'all for listening today. I have seen the comments. The comment section has been lit as the kids say. So thank you so much. Last questions, we had guidance counselors in elementary, middle school and high school. We don't have them now, they're called therapists now.

What is it, what would be your biggest advice for your younger self, getting started in your career? Oh man, I wouldn't have gotten to music school. I probably would have just gotten the CS degree or boot camps aren't really a thing in 2011. I mean, I think General Assembly was actually founded in 2011, but they weren't super popular. I probably would have just gone the self-taught route. Like if I'd known how, well, not how easy it is, but like it's not the hardest thing in the world. I've done harder things. So like just getting out there and doing it, put down the video games and just commit to something.

Like it's just like paying your bills. You get your paycheck in. If you pay the bills first, then whatever's left over you can play with. Same deal. Get the stuff you need to get done to take care of you done first. Then whatever times left you can play with. Like I didn't do that when I was younger. I was too recreational. I was a teenager. I was having a good time. That's awesome. I love that. I love that. Well, Ray, thank you again, y'all. Thank you again for hanging out with us today. We appreciate it. Go connect with Ray. I will tell you this, this has probably been the most engaging show we've had.

The comment section has just been unreal. So thank you so, so much. Ray, thank you, stay on real quick so I can say bye to you all fair. But y'all have a great Tuesday again. No show tomorrow, no show. I'll be at Vaco all day for a sales training. Thursday, Unicorn Finders with a company called Carrot who is helping minorities and unrepresented individuals in tech perform better on tech interviews, especially in the fangs side of things. And then Friday, it'll just be me going live with some thoughts I can usually do on Friday. So y'all have a great one. Ray, thank you again, buddy. Thanks for having me.

We'll see y'all Thursday. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode and I am very grateful. Cause you know why? There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes and I myself rarely finish an entire episode. So I appreciate you so, so much for listening. Quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the App Store. I want this to be discoverable to others. And the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it, please, like right now, unless you're driving, then don't do it. So thank you again. If you need to reach out to me, tailor at vaco.com or at Tdastin on all social media handles.

And I hope you have a fantastic day.